Danbooru

Proposal for an "Alice allusion"-type tag

Posted under Tags

Ylimegirl

Continued from topic #31190, more specifically forum #344084 / forum #344085.

Basically the concept is a gentag for posts focusing on characters clearly inspired by Alice from Alice in Wonderland. (Placeholder tagname stolen from TV Tropes.) Not all posts with this concept would have the Alice in Wonderland copytag, and not all characters would necessarily be from established copytags of their own. While the TV tropes article is generally more broad in scope to any references to Wonderland, I think we could focus in on the specific design archetype. The smattering of posts listed in forum #344084 give a good starting point, including established Alice-types (most of whom are named Alice).

In no particular order, off the top of my head there's

There are definitely others, but I'm a little hungry and bad at research. Generally, the common traits are

  • Younger girl
  • Longer blonde hair
  • Short blue dress
  • Apron
  • Bows
  • Lolita fashion
  • Hairband/hair bow (sometimes Rabbit themed)

Not hard and fast rules, obviously, but the influence the Disney version of Alice has had on other designs is very clear. I think this hypothetical tag should focus in on posts where it's clear the character is a reference to the idea of Alice, so not all posts featuring the characters listed above would necessarily count (post #6397298 is just a blonde girl in a bikini for example, and while post #9000822 is a cosplay Miku's just too Miku to be an Alice). It's maybe a bit of a broad and subjective tag, but we have other broad and somewhat subjective tags for other "archetype"-ish designs a la gyaru. And for probably obvious reasons an umbrella search for something like alice_* wouldn't work because not every character named Alice is an Alice-type (and not all Alice-types are necessarily named Alice).

As for tag names, we could stick with Alice allusion or something like Alice archetype or something else, either alliterative or not.

Please feel free to chime in

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Knowledge Seeker

Ooh, this trope! Glad to see discussion about creating a tag for the aesthetic. Hell, I even once came into topic #12251 asking about it (forum #255156) at some point lol. The post I brought up there, post #6750605, is a post I think would be a good example of the sort of thing I'd imagine going into that tag: it has a "vibe" that wouldn't look out of place in Alice in Wonderland, but is not an overt enough reference for one to tag as Alice in Wonderland proper.

I feel like your general assertion of the aesthetic is pretty accurate, as it's a vibe I see in quite a bit of the artwork I upload (especially at the time of said post). The main problem I see with the idea of this tag at the outset is making sure it's not just a blatant reference, and merely the sort of...well, wonderous vibe of the story. Not sure how to counter this problem, but I'm sure it's perfectly doable.

I'm...Actually not very well, emotionally, right now, so I lack the brainpower needed to go looking for more examples (as they are, of course, pretty hard to search for, as is indicative of a tag yet-to-be), but I think this is a good step in the right direction. As for the name, I think the TV Tropes name of Alice Allusion is enough to the point to work as a tag name for this aesthetic (and its catchy!).

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Confetto

Don't have anything to add, just wanted to put in my +1 for this concept. In general I'm all for more tags relating to common visual/design/fashion tropes and styles – they're pretty underrepresented at the moment.

Off-topic: Gyaru isn't a great comparison since it's a real life subculture and fashion style. (I've actually been trying to garden it and add some more granularity when it comes to the subcategories because of how broad it is!)

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Witch-Hunter-Siegfried

Ylimegirl said:

Continued from topic #31190, more specifically forum #344084 / forum #344085.

Basically the concept is a gentag for posts focusing on characters clearly inspired by Alice from Alice in Wonderland. (Placeholder tagname stolen from TV Tropes.) Not all posts with this concept would have the Alice in Wonderland copytag, and not all characters would necessarily be from established copytags of their own. While the TV tropes article is generally more broad in scope to any references to Wonderland, I think we could focus in on the specific design archetype. The smattering of posts listed in forum #344084 give a good starting point, including established Alice-types (most of whom are named Alice).

In no particular order, off the top of my head there's

There are definitely others, but I'm a little hungry and bad at research. Generally, the common traits are

  • Younger girl
  • Longer blonde hair
  • Short blue dress
  • Apron
  • Bows
  • Lolita fashion
  • Hairband/hair bow (sometimes Rabbit themed)

Not hard and fast rules, obviously, but the influence the Disney version of Alice has had on other designs is very clear. I think this hypothetical tag should focus in on posts where it's clear the character is a reference to the idea of Alice, so not all posts featuring the characters listed above would necessarily count (post #6397298 is just a blonde girl in a bikini for example, and while post #9000822 is a cosplay Miku's just too Miku to be an Alice). It's maybe a bit of a broad and subjective tag, but we have other broad and somewhat subjective tags for other "archetype"-ish designs a la gyaru. And for probably obvious reasons an umbrella search for something like alice_* wouldn't work because not every character named Alice is an Alice-type (and not all Alice-types are necessarily named Alice).

As for tag names, we could stick with Alice allusion or something like Alice archetype or something else, either alliterative or not.

Please feel free to chime in

Nursery_Rhyme_(Fate) AKA EXTRA Caster as well they're both Alice (she even summons the Jabberwockey).

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Ylimegirl

Witch-Hunter-Siegfried said:

Nursery_Rhyme_(Fate) AKA EXTRA Caster as well they're both Alice (she even summons the Jabberwockey).

I don't think Nursery Rhyme tends to count quite as much, especially when paired alongside her master Alice herself, mostly just due to the fact that she has a black/purple colorscheme instead of a blue/white one. It would probably depend on the image, though--her final ascension, for example, would perhaps be more clearly an Alice allusion, as she gains some mushroomy motifs on her dress and the like. (Doesn't hurt that in that illustration she's also holding the literal book itself, lol.)

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Knowledge Seeker

Started pulling favgroup #42459 together after doing some more thought. I think the goal here we want is to make it easy to search for not just the asthetics, but group all these Alice copyrights together (hence why I included the OG posts that kicked this thread off). It's nowhere near my threshold for an attempt at creating the tag, but is this what we want?

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TheGamingRodent

Ylimegirl said:

Continued from topic #31190, more specifically forum #344084 / forum #344085.

Basically the concept is a gentag for posts focusing on characters clearly inspired by Alice from Alice in Wonderland. (Placeholder tagname stolen from TV Tropes.) Not all posts with this concept would have the Alice in Wonderland copytag, and not all characters would necessarily be from established copytags of their own. While the TV tropes article is generally more broad in scope to any references to Wonderland, I think we could focus in on the specific design archetype. The smattering of posts listed in forum #344084 give a good starting point, including established Alice-types (most of whom are named Alice).

In no particular order, off the top of my head there's

There are definitely others, but I'm a little hungry and bad at research. Generally, the common traits are

  • Younger girl
  • Longer blonde hair
  • Short blue dress
  • Apron
  • Bows
  • Lolita fashion
  • Hairband/hair bow (sometimes Rabbit themed)

Not hard and fast rules, obviously, but the influence the Disney version of Alice has had on other designs is very clear. I think this hypothetical tag should focus in on posts where it's clear the character is a reference to the idea of Alice, so not all posts featuring the characters listed above would necessarily count (post #6397298 is just a blonde girl in a bikini for example, and while post #9000822 is a cosplay Miku's just too Miku to be an Alice). It's maybe a bit of a broad and subjective tag, but we have other broad and somewhat subjective tags for other "archetype"-ish designs a la gyaru. And for probably obvious reasons an umbrella search for something like alice_* wouldn't work because not every character named Alice is an Alice-type (and not all Alice-types are necessarily named Alice).

As for tag names, we could stick with Alice allusion or something like Alice archetype or something else, either alliterative or not.

Please feel free to chime in

Alice is def a unique situation, given her many incarnations, also should we count Nero Alice? Her design (and abilities) are inspired by Alice as well

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Knowledge Seeker

BUR #41042 is pending approval.

mass update favgroup:42459 -> alice_allusion

Alright, figured I might as well get the ball rolling on this one. I'll be honest, it feels more than a little haphazard at the moment, but my aim was to at least start the process on ironing this out.

Also, as a side note: given the amount of cosplay I could find, it could take some of the burden off in cleaning up the mess that is the current Alice in Wonderland copytag. But let's just start discussing this tag again, as I want to make sure this tag works properly first and foremost.

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Ylimegirl TenaciousTurtleDucks Confetto CommentaryRequest schule Red Terror Login to view AbsoluteRainbow
Ylimegirl

thank you for starting the BUR for this i straight up kinda forgor and got distacted

If this goes through the other main similar aesthetic I can think of is a tag for allusions to Dorothy Gale, our other classic literature isekai protagonist

Reply
Knowledge Seeker

Ylimegirl said:

thank you for starting the BUR for this i straight up kinda forgor and got distacted

Anytime. Especially for a tagging concept like this I think would be incredibly useful.

If this goes through the other main similar aesthetic I can think of is a tag for allusions to Dorothy Gale, our other classic literature isekai protagonist

zetsubousensei said:

Snow White comes to mind post #6836883 as does Red Riding Hood post #6807393

My main focus is on Alice here at the moment, but I can see a tag for aesthetics of these guys coming to fruition if this BUR goes through. Would make cleaning up their respective tags much easier too, as our fairytale tags are quite the mess of allusions and various references in other media, and I sincerely doubt The Wizard of Oz is much better either.

Reply
schule

Ylimegirl said:
There are definitely others, but I'm a little hungry and bad at research. Generally, the common traits are

  • Younger girl
  • Longer blonde hair
  • Short blue dress
  • Apron
  • Bows
  • Lolita fashion
  • Hairband/hair bow (sometimes Rabbit themed)

I really like the idea of this tag! I know it was said that these weren't hard-set rules, but I was curious about a few things relating to it. I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I've always considered Alice (Fate) an outlier aesthetically compared to other Alice allusions-- specifically her hairstyle/color and how the dress is styled don't really scream "Alice" to me, and if I wasn't familiar with the series, I wouldn't have assumed her to be Alice at all.

I was also wondering how much leeway may be given to male counterparts of this. Teddie/Kuma's canonical crossdressing outfit I assume is a dead ringer for what the tag is looking for, but would Allen Llewellyn be considered for it (since he's written to be one, but doesn't quite meet the criteria)?

Knowledge_Seeker said:
Would make cleaning up their respective tags much easier too, as our fairytale tags are quite the mess of allusions and various references in other media, and I sincerely doubt The Wizard of Oz is much better either.

The Wizard of Oz is thankfully significantly less dense, but it's got the Alice in Wonderland problem where it's pulling double-duty for the book itself and the Judy Garland movie (as in both the movie-specific red slippers and the other three being drawn like how the actors are styled in the movie). And occasionally, Wicked lol.

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AbsoluteRainbow

schule said:

I really like the idea of this tag! I know it was said that these weren't hard-set rules, but I was curious about a few things relating to it. I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I've always considered Alice (Fate) an outlier aesthetically compared to other Alice allusions-- specifically her hairstyle/color and how the dress is styled don't really scream "Alice" to me, and if I wasn't familiar with the series, I wouldn't have assumed her to be Alice at all.

I was also wondering how much leeway may be given to male counterparts of this. Teddie/Kuma's canonical crossdressing outfit I assume is a dead ringer for what the tag is looking for, but would Allen Llewellyn be considered for it (since he's written to be one, but doesn't quite meet the criteria)?

The Wizard of Oz is thankfully significantly less dense, but it's got the Alice in Wonderland problem where it's pulling double-duty for the book itself and the Judy Garland movie (as in both the movie-specific red slippers and the other three being drawn like how the actors are styled in the movie). And occasionally, Wicked lol.

Knowledge_Seeker said:

Anytime. Especially for a tagging concept like this I think would be incredibly useful.

My main focus is on Alice here at the moment, but I can see a tag for aesthetics of these guys coming to fruition if this BUR goes through. Would make cleaning up their respective tags much easier too, as our fairytale tags are quite the mess of allusions and various references in other media, and I sincerely doubt The Wizard of Oz is much better either.

For some Oz, see forum #31837 too. However, this forum is currently about Alice. So...

Ylimegirl said:

thank you for starting the BUR for this i straight up kinda forgor and got distracted

If this goes through the other main similar aesthetic I can think of is a tag for allusions to Dorothy Gale, our other classic literature isekai protagonist

You meant from the Oz? Go to Wizard of Oz forums such as (the aforementioned) forum #31837. We're talking about Alice here, no offense though.

Knowledge_Seeker said:

BUR #41042 is pending approval.

mass update favgroup:42459 -> alice_allusion

Alright, figured I might as well get the ball rolling on this one. I'll be honest, it feels more than a little haphazard at the moment, but my aim was to at least start the process on ironing this out.

Also, as a side note: given the amount of cosplay I could find, it could take some of the burden off in cleaning up the mess that is the current Alice in Wonderland copytag. But let's just start discussing this tag again, as I want to make sure this tag works properly first and foremost.

It's been a trope already, now I would like it to actually become a live tag filled with allusions to Alice Liddell we're talking about.

Ylimegirl said:

Continued from topic #31190, more specifically forum #344084 / forum #344085.

Basically the concept is a gentag for posts focusing on characters clearly inspired by Alice from Alice in Wonderland. (Placeholder tagname stolen from TV Tropes.) Not all posts with this concept would have the Alice in Wonderland copytag, and not all characters would necessarily be from established copytags of their own. While the TV tropes article is generally more broad in scope to any references to Wonderland, I think we could focus in on the specific design archetype. The smattering of posts listed in forum #344084 give a good starting point, including established Alice-types (most of whom are named Alice).

In no particular order, off the top of my head there's

There are definitely others, but I'm a little hungry and bad at research. Generally, the common traits are

  • Younger girl
  • Longer blonde hair
  • Short blue dress
  • Apron
  • Bows
  • Lolita fashion
  • Hairband/hair bow (sometimes Rabbit themed)

Not hard and fast rules, obviously, but the influence the Disney version of Alice has had on other designs is very clear. I think this hypothetical tag should focus in on posts where it's clear the character is a reference to the idea of Alice, so not all posts featuring the characters listed above would necessarily count (post #6397298 is just a blonde girl in a bikini for example, and while post #9000822 is a cosplay Miku's just too Miku to be an Alice). It's maybe a bit of a broad and subjective tag, but we have other broad and somewhat subjective tags for other "archetype"-ish designs a la gyaru. And for probably obvious reasons an umbrella search for something like alice_* wouldn't work because not every character named Alice is an Alice-type (and not all Alice-types are necessarily named Alice).

As for tag names, we could stick with Alice allusion or something like Alice archetype or something else, either alliterative or not.

Please feel free to chime in

Here's some of my suggestions:
- Alice of the Black Souls and her variations/counterparts
- Alice the Blood Maiden
- Alice in a maze

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Ylimegirl

AbsoluteRainbow said:

You meant from the Oz? Go to Wizard of Oz forums such as (the aforementioned) forum #31837. We're talking about Alice here, no offense though.

I know mate, its my forum thread. I think you mean topic #31837 either way, but that is barely adjacent. Populating that tag would warrant a new topic.

It's been a trope already, now I would like it to actually become a live tag filled with allusions to Alice Liddell we're talking about.

Congrats you figured out the point of this BUR!

Also like, you can delete some of the quoted text when replying to specific parts of posts (like I just did), so we're not stuck with a wall of not-super-relevant text.

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Knowledge Seeker

AbsoluteRainbow said:

Thanks for making catching up on this discussion a bit of a pain. As well as contributing absolutely nothing to the conversation while you're at it.

Anyway, on a more on-topic note...

schule said:

I really like the idea of this tag! I know it was said that these weren't hard-set rules, but I was curious about a few things relating to it. I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I've always considered Alice (Fate) an outlier aesthetically compared to other Alice allusions-- specifically her hairstyle/color and how the dress is styled don't really scream "Alice" to me, and if I wasn't familiar with the series, I wouldn't have assumed her to be Alice at all.

I'm not familiar enough with the Fate series to have an opinion on this. I think that will need to be a decision made amongst the Fate builders on how to handle her, but whatever is decided I'll do my best to upkeep.

I was also wondering how much leeway may be given to male counterparts of this. Teddie/Kuma's canonical crossdressing outfit I assume is a dead ringer for what the tag is looking for, but would Allen Llewellyn be considered for it (since he's written to be one, but doesn't quite meet the criteria)?

I don't see why male counterparts must be excluded personally. If they fit the criteria for the tag as stated, I think they should be included in the aesthetic tag (otherwise how will we catalog genderswaps?). I think Allen Llewellyn is exactly the sort of character this tag would also be looking for, and I personally would probably find it bizarre to not see him in the tag were I more familiar with him lol.

The Wizard of Oz is thankfully significantly less dense, but it's got the Alice in Wonderland problem where it's pulling double-duty for the book itself and the Judy Garland movie (as in both the movie-specific red slippers and the other three being drawn like how the actors are styled in the movie). And occasionally, Wicked lol.

Yep, that's about what I expected lol. Another on the list to clean up, I spy. But that'll be saved for another thread.

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Ylimegirl

schule said:

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I've always considered Alice (Fate) an outlier aesthetically compared to other Alice allusions-- specifically her hairstyle/color and how the dress is styled don't really scream "Alice" to me, and if I wasn't familiar with the series, I wouldn't have assumed her to be Alice at all.

Fair enough, she's a borderline case and I think most isolated art of her isn't Alice-y enough to count. I think art pairing her with other Alice elements such as post #8983167 oughta qualify though.

I have no issue with male Alices being included if they fit the vibe, whether they're crossdressing or not.

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AbsoluteRainbow

Confetto said:

There's also a lot of these floating around in original that don't have enough specifics going on for an AIW copytag: post #8464204, post #2040991, post #7426045, post #7764386, etc.

I'd also add to your list of common traits: visual motifs of clocks/watches, rabbits, playing cards, teacups, and mushrooms.

Alright! But can we also count the allusion of other characters of the AIW as well (provided the respective characters alluded to in any post are correctly tagged)? If yes, this would mean the Mad Matter, the rabbit, the Queen of Hearts, etc. would also be covered, but that would require a ton of character-specific considerations akin to allusions of Alice Liddell the character (which definitely seems to be the main source of the pool of posts we're talking about in this topic here)

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