There seems to be mixed opinions on the way the variant sets for Dairi should be handled.
Initially, I told people in the bounty thread via forum #362660 to make each set a pool (didn't specify parenting).
A little while later comment #2524421 was made with a small discussion asking whether there is a need for all the small pools when it could be a big pool with the consensus being that it should be: One big pool (pool #26125), no parenting and the way to search being "pool:26125 character"
Shortly after, a line was added to the pool:26125's description saying "To easily view all the expressions from a Pixiv post, copy the ID (pixiv.net/artworks/{ID}) and search pixiv:{ID}. Example: pixiv:36023759"
But discussion has since been had on the discord that I'm hoping to bring to the forums for further discussion and for the records sake. I won't detail what was said specifically in case I butcher what people meant and allow them to summarise themselves but generally it was concerns regarding the searchability of the pool and the need for such a large pool when a large amount of the artists work (right now) is these touhou variant sets.
I think having it be one gigantic pool is kind of pointless, you might as well not have a pool at that point. Yes, individual pools would end up with a fuckton of pools, but if they had been uploaded over the span of a year or two nobody would've bat an eye.
I don't have a strong opinion on this, but if I may play devil's advocate for a bit, I tried navigating a few popular characters with the chartag method. Some have over a dozen pages with 20 posts per page, but users can always increase it to 200 per page and view a large number of thumbnails at once.
The Pixiv ID method sounds like it would be most useful for uploaders making sure the image set they picked isn't already in the pool. However, it seems to be a completely backwards method for casual searching. I would expect users to look at the images in the pool first instead of using a Pixiv ID, which they won't likely have on hand, to find them here. The chartag method seems much easier to me.
Searching wise, I think one pool + a given Touhou's chartag ought to be the best approach. Having multiple small pools in this instance sounds like a bit of a mess to search for, especially for members stuck with the two-tag search limit.
I'm mostly open to whatever but I will say that I did plan to sort the pool order by order of appearance and also change the description to be ordered by character/game with a search to either go to pool:id+character or pixiv:id depending on what the character limit permitted me and what would work best based on advice
I think that having them all in a pool together is fine, so someone can find the character they want the variant set of easily. But one thing that bothers me is they're in a pretty random order, unorganized. I think order by game oldest first, then order of appearance in it.
I'm mostly open to whatever but I will say that I did plan to sort the pool order by order of appearance and also change the description to be ordered by character/game with a search to either go to pool:id+character or pixiv:id depending on what the character limit permitted me and what would work best based on advice
I think this ordering would work for the most part. It's the sort of ordering I (and I presume most other people here) typically go off of with Touhou anyway, so it should do the trick.
If you wouldn't put them all in the same gigantic parent/child relationship, then don't put them all in the same pool. It's the same thing.
Pools shouldn't have thousands of posts. The only reason it's allowed at all is that there are a handful of long-running comic series that legitimately have thousands of posts. But it's not something that should be encouraged.
I guess we'll have to restore the smaller pools, then. But since everyone is now putting it in one pool, maybe this should be done after everyone's finished to minimize the chaos.
If you wouldn't put them all in the same gigantic parent/child relationship, then don't put them all in the same pool. It's the same thing.
Pools shouldn't have thousands of posts. The only reason it's allowed at all is that there are a handful of long-running comic series that legitimately have thousands of posts. But it's not something that should be encouraged.
Noted. Would you recommend putting them in pools by character or by pose+character?
Blank_User said:
I guess we'll have to restore the smaller pools, then. But since everyone is now putting it in one pool, maybe this should be done after everyone's finished to minimize the chaos.
I can dmail the people that have been upping thus far and also revert my forum post to mention individual pools. Just need to find out if it's best to be per character or per pose+character before I do so though or it's double the clean-up.
Reading this conversation, I think I'll hold off on uploading more sets until you have a plan figured out. I don't want to add to the complexity and make your work harder.
I am of the absolutely unflinching opinion that a single pool is better than any alternative here.
The tag Dairi is completely unusable if there isn't a way to filter out these FOUR THOUSAND WORKS of variants of individual characters. I always try to look at a problem as 'what's the best way to search for this with the default two-tag limit, what's the most wieldy'.
If you just want to look at the non-variant-set Dairi works, the best option you have is Dairi -pool:26125. That gets you all their unrelated works instantly, including individual posts that follow the alphes style such as post #1627359 and unrelated pictures like post #2170064
Likewise with the alphes_(style) tag, which is also completely bloated out with this, making it nearly impossible to find posts like #673034 if you don't already know what you're looking for.
If you want to look at a specific character's variants sets as a cohesive group, 'pool:26125 character_name' gets you 4-5 pages of their content. Not ideal, but that's a perfectly reasonable amount to look for for this. Ideally, these would have been originally uploaded by Dairi in the style of their older variant sets; as a spritesheet like post #2032918 but the chicken's long escaped the roost by this point.
If you make them individual pools by character, both the Dairi and the Alphes tags become completely unusable - there is no way even with the ten-tag limit to search for them. And trying to connect all those pools even just for inter-navigation purposes is a nightmare.
evazion said:
Pools shouldn't have thousands of posts. The only reason it's allowed at all is that there are a handful of long-running comic series that legitimately have thousands of posts. But it's not something that should be encouraged.
This is one of those obviously extreme cases where it's absolutely necessary, like those long form comics. The exact same circumstances apply - literal thousands of pages encompass a single thing, and a single tag doesn't exist that could adequately capture them. A single pool is the best option we have - any tag we make that includes them is going to be absolutely shit up with the FOUR THOUSAND AND COUNTING posts of repeating characters, and a pool is the only way we can reliably sort them out of everything else while still making the related tags usable for freebie users. Barring a functionality upgrade that allows us to collapse a variant set into a single post for searching purposes, this is the only workable option.
The tag Dairi is completely unusable if there isn't a way to filter out these FOUR THOUSAND WORKS of variants of individual characters. I always try to look at a problem as 'what's the best way to search for this with the default two-tag limit, what's the most wieldy'.
If you just want to look at the non-variant-set Dairi works, the best option you have is Dairi -pool:26125. That gets you all their unrelated works instantly, including individual posts that follow the alphes style such as post #1627359 and unrelated pictures like post #2170064
What's the issue with -large_variant_set in this situation? It's one tag added to the search either way.
It would filter out things like pixiv #130255729 (furry commission variant set), but 'I want to see Dairi large variant sets of tachi-e but not the touhou ones' seems like a bit of an awkward search to accommodate with what amounts to a 'dairilarge_variant_settouhou' pool.
(On alphes style: "alphes_(style) large_variant_set -dairi" currently has 0 posts, though it could be an issue in the future.)
What's the issue with -large_variant_set in this situation? It's one tag added to the search either way.
It would filter out things like pixiv #130255729 (furry commission variant set), but 'I want to see Dairi large variant sets of tachi-e but not the touhou ones' seems like a bit of an awkward search to accommodate with what amounts to a 'dairilarge_variant_settouhou' pool.
(On alphes style: "alphes_(style) large_variant_set -dairi" currently has 0 posts, though it could be an issue in the future.)
The serious answer is that there’s plenty of people where the only thing they want to filter out is just this group of posts. If you want to blacklist just these posts of Dairis, making it a pool allows you to put it as a single thing as a way to reliably filter it.
And Being able to express something in two tags over three is an important threshold, because it makes the search usable by absolutely anyone. I’m quite certain a few people have walked in this week, seen literal pages of just this variant set, and said “fuck this” and left the site entirely.
I’m also not wedded to the idea of this pool being Touhou-specific - it’s just the Touhou tag that’s been absolutely buried. A pool:26125 Touhou search would be a perfectly fine search in my eyes, if the pool wasn’t Touhou already.
It’s also quite possible that smaller variant sets could still become a problem, at the scale we’re looking at.
Feel the medium option of having the pool be by character and not by pose is probably best if no big pool. Can easily be changed later whilst also making some kind of logical sense. The artist sometimes has more than one pose in each pixiv post which could get confusing if it's by pose. Will update my forum post accordingly if it's fine with everyone else. Pool naming scheme ideas welcome too.
For the time being, searching for dairi -pool:*_(dairi) will filter out the ones being put in the current pool, and would’ve also worked for those smaller pools. If the smaller pools are consistently named, the wildcard search can be adjusted and we can avoid false positives like the manga collection pool.
Also, it seems users are now uploading these without parenting or pooling them.
NiceLittleDan said:
I can dmail the people that have been upping thus far and also revert my forum post to mention individual pools. Just need to find out if it's best to be per character or per pose+character before I do so though or it's double the clean-up.
One reason I thought it would be best to wait until the pool is finished is because other users are getting annoyed by these uploads and will probably be even more annoyed by the pool spam, so it may be preferable to repool them all at once instead of spreading it out over time.
