Posted under General
Mass Edit:
shanghai -> shanghai_doll
hourai -> hourai_doll
Reason:
1. "shanghai" is derived from the city. No alias, because the shanghai tag should show pictures that are currently found under shanghai_(city)
2. The dolls aren't characters. There is no doll named "Shanghai". In the official works, dolls of a certain type are always called X人形 (X doll). See the wikis for the tags above:
上海人形, 蓬莱人形, ゴリアテ人形
Updated by sgcdonmai
S1eth said:
I guess not counting the doll when it's just a doll (1girl + doll = solo, 2girls + doll = 2girls) and counting it when it is a person is good enough.
Awfully difficult to do and maintain all over Danbooru, yet makes sense.
I have spent a lot of time pondering about how many girls this or that Alice-and-Shanghai picture features. When the context is unclear, would you go with "canon says just dolls, so they are just dolls"?
Hargh. They should be kept as they were.
Reason:
1. "shanghai" is derived from the city. No alias, because the shanghai tag should show pictures that are currently found under shanghai_(city)
That doesn't matter. How many pictures of Shangai the city might we possibly have? We have many tags where the (ordinarly) primary meaning is qualified, because it's not the primary use on danbooru.
2. The dolls aren't characters. There is no doll named "Shanghai". In the official works, dolls of a certain type are always called X人形 (X doll). See the wikis for the tags above:
上海人形, 蓬莱人形, ゴリアテ人形
Neither is Koakuma. That doesn't stop anyone. 99.999% of touhou fan creations ignore the canon to a greater or smaller extent.
The edits should be definitely reverted. It's a pointless bit of pedantry that helps no-one, and hurts a lot for how we actually use the tags.
葉月 said:
Neither is Koakuma.
Koakuma is a character. Just like the dolls, we have a way of calling her: "little devil" in Japanese. ZUN called her a "koakuma" in an email and so do the fans. That's what she is and doubles as a fanon name. It's not her official name, but a fanon name tag is better than no tag at all.
葉月 said:
99.999% of touhou fan creations ignore the canon to a greater or smaller extent.
That doesn't mean danbooru should ignore canon.
The doll is explicitly called 「上海人形」in the Imperishable Night manual, which means that is the official name to go with.
goliath has 0 posts, but you don't suggest we edit goliath_doll to Goliath now and add some unintuitive qualifier to the real Goliath should he ever be posted, do you?
葉月 said:
hurts a lot for how we actually use the tags.
How? It gets the semantics right. Other than that, all that changes is that the tag is 5 characters longer.
S1eth said:
Koakuma is a character. Just like the dolls, we have a way of calling her: "little devil" in Japanese. ZUN called her a "koakuma" in an email and so do the fans. That's what she is and doubles as a fanon name. It's not her official name, but a fanon name tag is better than no tag at all.
No. Koakuma are small imp-like familiars present around Patchouli. ZUN has stated there's no single "Koakuma" character, it's a class of beings. But everyone and their dog ignores that, to the point where (IIRC) ZUN himself has conceded and changed his stance on that.
That doesn't mean danbooru should ignore canon.
If more or less ALL fanon ignores it, then yes, we should too. "Canon" in Touhou is a wrong label anyway, "things not yet processed by the fandom" is a better term. Looks, personalities, relationships, plots and just about everything gets reshaped with various level of not giving a damn about what ZUN has said in the official materials.
The doll is explicitly called 「上海人形」in the Imperishable Night manual, which means that is the official name to go with.
goliath has 0 posts, but you don't suggest we edit goliath_doll to Goliath now and add some unintuitive qualifier to the real Goliath should he ever be posted, do you?
We don't do it because there's no prior art. There's no prior art for calling the dolls "X doll" either in anything but the official materials; everyone else just says "Hourai" and "Shanghai".
How? It gets the semantics right. Other than that, all that changes is that the tag is 5 characters longer.
It's longer, uglier, and will lead to people tagging with the base names still, because there are no aliases. It's all around a silly exercise in pointless pedantry. The semantics are also not right for the vast majority of images we have where Shanghai and Hourai *are* portrayed as characters.
葉月 said:
No. Koakuma are small imp-like familiars present around Patchouli. ZUN has stated there's no single "Koakuma" character, it's a class of beings. But everyone and their dog ignores that, to the point where (IIRC) ZUN himself has conceded and changed his stance on that.
We're digressing from the main topic, but in Touhou, little devil is like a subspecies of the devil species. In the game, only 1 ever appeared. Do you have any proof that there is more than 1 "Koakuma" in the Scarlet Devil Mansion? All other enemies in the game are books or fairies. In the comics, there are also only fairies. Also, Koakuma was never confirmed to be a familiar.
葉月 said:
If more or less ALL fanon ignores it, then yes, we should too.
150 Pixiv pages disagree
http://www.pixiv.net/search.php?s_mode=s_tag&word=上海人形&p=150
The fanon does recognize them as X人形
葉月 said:
everything gets reshaped with various level of not giving a damn about what ZUN has said in the official materials.
Names don't. Hong_Meiling remains Hong_Meiling no matter what fanon calls her.
葉月 said:
will lead to people tagging with the base names still, because there are no aliases.
That's easy. I will just manually fix them until the change has become well known. Every time any tag is changed in any way will lead to some people using tags in a wrong way. We can't just use that as a reason to never change anything. Just look at all those mistagged bottomless and no_pants images.
葉月 said:
the vast majority of images we have where Shanghai and Hourai *are* portrayed as characters.
vast majority? I don't think so.
If they are speaking dolls, no problem. For the rest, do you mean personification?
BTW: how to best translate 大江戸爆薬からくり人形 for post #766067 ?
Thanks, sgcdonmai
Updated
The problem is that Rabbit of the Moon, Rabbit of the Earth and the tales involving the three fairies have differing circumstances for the dolls. The former has them being controlled directly by alice, while the latter seems to imply a degree of sentience.
And the problem is that the look for Hourai dolls are completely fanon since in the game series (at least from what I've seen), its just the lunatic version of Shanghai or a named spellcard.
So I guess the problem is that the canon is inconsistent on what exactly the dolls are, in terms of directly controlled by Alice (which would make the tale of the three fairies a bit more awkward since Alice would look like a nut) or with some personality.
Yes, Alice talks to her dolls she controls, not only in the 3 Fairies comic, but also in the Imperishable Night prologue. I guess she doesn't need eye contact to control them, and since she knows her house very well, she can blindly shovel snow from her roof with them. In BAiJR, she researches about making sentient dolls. We never saw any progress.
S1eth said:
BTW: how to best translate 大江戸爆薬からくり人形 for post #766067 ?
"Ooedo Explosive Marionette".
