Posted under General
father and son -> parent and child
father and daughter -> parent and child
mother and son -> parent and child
mother and daughter -> parent and child
This would have made my life easier last night. We might also consider a separate caretaker or guardian tag for post #662855 and the like.
Updated by jjj14
i apologize to bump this, but i would like to know the significance of establishing family relationships of characters in posts. are they really useful? do they even have a purpose?
our policy is to tag what we see, but family relationships require some sort of external knowledge, either a established fact or something that will be revealed much later. in any case however, it's something can't be deduce outright just by looking at the image. (i read this before, but i failed to locate it and this thread appears to be the nearest.)
since the family tags have grown, i like to know if they did more good or harm after all these years. and i like to hear the opinion of taggers like myself who are exposed in correcting and identifying personalities.
so far, i'm inclined in decommissioning all the family tags and prohibit people from using and creating them. imho, the relationships between characters are better left off-site. but this is just my opinion. i might be missing something so i'm all ears. thanks.
^ yes, i like to know if the family tags do more good or harm since its inception. good in the sense (if useful) in aiding the user locate something or trim a search about a character he's associated with (e.g. naruto + mother_and_son, etc)
or harmful in a way of spoiling the casual site user (or even other taggers). a very recent example was forum #75161. the tags in question were
but a mod quickly took action granting he knew already the information and he didn't spoil himself. and this is just one case where family relations are important plot elements.
but my concern is if the good far outweighs the potential harm? or is it worth taking risk the family tags dangling over a post waiting until somebody corrects it?
or is this something we take for granted?
Just because a tag has the potential to do harm if used in a situation that would reveal spoilers, doesn't mean that it can't be used harmlessly in other contexts.
In most cases familial relationships are known from day one with a series and do not constitute spoilers. While they do require background knowlege, and as such will always be somewhat controversial, they can often add information that frames the context of an image. That boy and girl hugging? Is it meant to be platonic brother and sister, or are they a couple?
In many cases this is common knowledge to anyone with a cursory familiarity with the series, does not constitute a spoiler, and may be useful to a user who has never heard of the series before.
Of course spoilers should be avoided and removed where they are introduced, but just the fact that a spoiler *could* potentially be introduced is not really a valid reason to ban a whole category of tags.
i don't deny the fact that family tags can be used spoiler-free. this works best in a series where family relations were introduced right at the beginning or the story revolves in a family setting with clearly defined associations. (can't think of a nice example, but something i learned here while tagging is remilia_scarlet and flandre_scarlet are siblings / sisters. i see no surprises/spoilers in being exposed to posts like these.
however what about of series that family relations are important turning point of the story like the main cast of star wars? or anime/manga/ln currently running/in-print?
sometimes the full name of characters are spoilers themselves. i found it logical and reasonable why jxh asks first if it's spoiler or not before committing an alias. if we are so careful about names, maybe we should be more about their respective relationships. plain given names or sometimes with different surnames hides the relationship of the characters which is neutral in applicable cases. but seeing something like brother_and_sister in the tag list spoils any user viewing the image!
going back about using family tags in harmless contexts, i ask again, is it worth tagging or even a taggable concept? the platonic nature of a hug or a kiss is very subjective and i would consider it beyond the scope of this site. we tag what we see, the personalities involved, their actions, and the details presented in the post. the relationship between the characters is something what a tagger knows not what he sees.
going by your example, if i want a "platonic" kiss between kagamine_len and kagamine_rin, i could use brother_and_sister kagamine_len kagamine_rin kiss -couple however, i'm surprised with the result at all.
if i want something "more than being platonic" i could use brother_and_sister kagamine_len kagamine_rin kiss couple. again, i'm surprised at the result. look for yourselves.
in this case, the brother_and_sister tag didn't help the user at all. however, we have other tags to state a level of undress or the focus of the post or ratings to specify the degree of being "platonic" which render the brother_and_sister tag completely useless and unnecessary.
keeping the family tags being spoiler-free requires aggressive monitoring. there's nothing for people who has background knowledge that prevents them to not use it.
The spoiler tag itself in the tag list immediately spoils people viewing an image. That's why it exists so that it can be blacklisted and avoided enitrely. That's the only thing Danbooru can do in shielding people from spoilers outside of comments or forum posts. It's not perfect but it's all that can be reasonably expected of a site like Danbooru, and I say this as someone who's an enormous stickler for spoilers.
It's simply a lousy reason to not tag information
You only add spoilers if the image itself contains spoilers. He's talking about spoilers in the tags.
about:spoilers already warns you about dual_persona (and I've removed hundreds of dual_persona tags from one of the mystery novel copyrights).
Family relationships are to be handled the same way. Tag only if it's not a spoiler.
@ghosttrigger: I think incest and -incest would be more effective in your search.
Updated
@Rampardos : basically what S1eth said.
@Sleth : yes, i think there are other tags to use. i just use it as an example based on my understanding of Shinjidude's explanation about adding info that frames the context of an image. in this particular case, though harmless, the brother_and_sister or any family tag, didn't serve any purpose. and it's almost impossible to detect accurately the platonic nature of a hug or a kiss (subjective based on one's culture).
not the best method, but for the earlier scenario on a platonic kiss could be kagamine_len kagamine_rin cheek_kiss . no relationship tags necessary.
for "more than being platonic" could be kagamine_len kagamine_rin kiss -rating:s . again, no relationship tags.
incest is a valid tag. but i refuse to use it because it implies relationship too. by corollary of my line of reasoning as presented above, it's a candidate for decommission too. however there's an added level of ambiguity not so direct like brother_and_sister .
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going back to family tags again, i don't see how it aids the user or how it's useful in harboring a time bomb waiting to explode to spoil us all. keeping family tags 100% spoiler-free needs aggressive monitoring and constant cleaning. even if in harmless cases, is it useful in filtering searches? does the good (if any) outweighs the harm? are we all willing to compromise the interest/satisfaction/enjoyment, which we vowed (are required) to protect, of our users just for the tiny bit of info like siblings?
Surely this can't be this hard. Using the example of 2 sisters as the relationship we're looking for...
tl;dr: I think the relationship tags should be nuked, then maybe create pools for images that depict characters as whatever these relationships look like.
We don't want pointless pool spam, so it might not be worth it, though stuff like incest and parent-child probably is worth keeping.
Updated
S1eth said:
You only add spoilers if the image itself contains spoilers. He's talking about spoilers in the tags.
about:spoilers already warns you about dual_persona (and I've removed hundreds of dual_persona tags from one of the mystery novel copyrights).
Family relationships are to be handled the same way. Tag only if it's not a spoiler.
I know what he meant. Stumbling upon a spoiler tag in the taglist itself is spoilers was my point. If you haven't already blacklisted spoilers and you find it tagged on an image, all it really does is outright tell you what you just saw is spoilers. The fact that that can happen shouldn't be an issue, because if you've blacklisted images that contain spoiler material, regardless of what other tags they have, they should be tagged spoilers, so it shouldn't happen.
As far as maintenance goes, spoilers itself is inherently maintenance heavy to begin with. Making sure it's properly tagged, as S1eth has already mentioned, already means keeping control of other tags like dual_persona (which is also often meta knowledge) as well.
I really don't think it's that big an issue as it's being made out to be, it's just a issue that is being weighed against whatever purpose family tags serve. But, if the tags are axed it should be on the merit that they're actually useless, not because they're a spoiler threat.
If you don't think the tags are useful, you should consider unnamed original characters in family settings or known characters with hypothetical children.
^ i apologize if there's a misunderstanding between our points of view then.
what you meant was the only thing Danbooru can do in shielding people from spoilers outside of comments or forum posts is to use the spoilers tag and blacklist it, correct? imho, this approach is not pro-active. you are not only tagging a post that can be essentially safe but also revealing the very reason why it's a spoiler - in clear tag form. unlike comments that can be obfuscate by black boxes, tags can't be hidden from view. is there really no other way than to use spoilers and blacklist it? it seems like there's no other way; we ran out of options; and came to a dead end but use those two methods.
going by the 2 posts in forum #75161, the posts are essentially safe, though the mod himself wasn't so sure of his approach. the first one are just 2girls nude symmetrical_docking of that particular series. if i'm going to use that search parameters, i want it to appear in the results. do we need to specify their relationship?
the second post is just 2girls with the half of each other placed together. 2 different characters. if i want posts like that, maybe something like this , i definitely want that to appear too. though i'm not sure what exactly is a tag for that. symmetry or mirror_opposites seems to be nearest and applicable. however, is it necessary adding relationship between the characters? what benefit we exactly gain from doing so? what happened to tag what we see and about:spoilers policy?
if there's a way not to reveal spoilers why not do it with all our might than itching to burst it out in the open? our collection is exponentially increasing. if we can make a mod's job simpler why not do it actively and tag responsibly? maintenance is already an exhaustive task why make it harder for people when we can do it simpler for everyone and safely?
spoilers is always an issue. we even have a dedicated policy to deal with it. spoilers affect aliases. spoilers get people banned. spoilers affect discussions. spoilers destroy worlds.
relationship is always controversial as stated in this thread and in our policy. so why not end the controversy once and for all, if we can live without specifying relationships?
going back to family tags, i asked the very basic question in my first post: i would like to know the significance of establishing family relationships of characters in posts. are they really useful? do they even have a purpose?
if we remove the spoiler threat it carries, so where does the family tags stand on? what does it exactly do? as Serlo point out, posts between siblings are searchable without using the word siblings. and by extension, the other family tags as well. since the user knows the characters' names he uses them instead. doesn't that make the relationship tags like siblings useless? if it isn't useless i'm eager to know where it exactly is useful that nothing the 6 tags limit can do?
The assumption that any family connection can be searched through tag combinations is simply not true. Most original characters do not have character tags and the artist's word is an acceptable source of information.
edit: There's only one image in original spoilers and it refers to a cosplay with a textual spoiler so I'm not entirely sure what you were trying to argue there.
vvv
Updated
^ that's basically it. we need external sources to establish relationships. it can't be deduced outright by looking at the image alone. original siblings chartags:0 return results. or in cases where the artist placed a name into his original character: original siblings chartags:2 also return results. edit: *this is a response particularly about reliance about outside sources, e.g. the author's words.*
however, i see no harm in them. original *_and_* spoilers and original siblings spoilers , interestingly return zero results. if somehow we limit these family tags to original/non-series personalities and be able to survive for more years to come, then i wouldn't mind, since they're unlikely/remotely to carry spoilers. maintenance by then will be limited to trimming down family tags posts to no known copyrights aside from being original. work load reduced by ten-fold.
but then again, i don't see the necessity to mirror all the tags used by the author and how could it exactly help the user filter his searches.
looking at post #320736 , what makes the brother_and_sister tag special? there's nothing to indicate in the picture that they're siblings, just the tag. i could probably use 1boy 1girl motorcycle original (this fails) or chartags:2 motorcycle original (works but questionable use of chartags). or alternately since the characters are named kanzaki_hayato kanzaki_miku motorcycle (works fine).
regarding unnamed characters: original family chartags:0 return some results. as Serlo pointed out, this might be a pool material. we might redefine (if applicable) some pools to accommodate such or create new ones. possible i think are slice of life, family-bonding, or heart-warming if they're not part of it yet. the filial relationship between characters are just auxiliary information, better left unsaid or off-site.
post #1114534 is old_woman kids, no need to indicate if the kids are her grandchildren or some kind young neighbors visiting a childless widow. i can't say for other posts at the moment because some are lacking the necessary tags without adding them first. but if they are not pool material, i can say most of them can be searchable by tags without family tags.
post #906084 is most probably a pool material. the taller girl can be her mother (if only it's not tagged as siblings) and can be searched using 2girls child holding_hands .
in any case, we are just exhausting every possible and available means of locating a post without using family tags. if there's one post that can't be located without using a family tag or not a pool material, i'm very open to know an example of it.
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EDIT: *after reading Log's edit ^^^ above ^^^* i checked original spoilers. the sole entry has nothing to do with family relationships. i used original siblings spoilers or original *_and_* spoilers to demonstrate/get posts that has something to do about close associations which is relevant in what we are discussing - original/unnamed characters from non-series copyrights. the * is for father, mother, etc (instead of typing each and every one). however since original spoilers only has one entry and that post contains no family tags, my 2 searches obviously will yield zero post.
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EDIT2 : @S1eth *vvv below vvv*
saigyouji_yuyuko 2girls child should work. but since the guy we are interested in is a recurring character in one artist's work only, maybe shin'en_(gyokuro_company) saigyouji_yuyuko child is fine too.
if we want the "mother and daughter" atmosphere alone, without the "fatherly" presence, maybe saigyouji_yuyuko 2girls child -1boy -faceless_male (though this not exactly work because of some missing tags; edit: tags added)
S1eth said:
do these images of saigyouji_yuyuko mother_and_daughter count because the relationship is visibly apparent?
Updated
Serlo said:
- For objective, canonincal family relationship information from outside the image, character tags will get you what you want.
- e.g. flandre_scarlet remilia_scarlet, add tags like 2girls, child, chartags:2, etc as you need.
- The siblings tag (and all relationship tags) should be nuked because tags need to be objective, so:
- It'd have to be tagged tagged blindly on every image
- This is mostly redundent over the character tags
- This also causes spoiler issues
- This often doesn't actually tag anything in the image anyone would want to find. (How many images of flan and remi actually have anything to do with them being siblings?)
flandre_scarlet remilia_scarlet -sisters should be nearly empty, but returns 202 pages. "Nearly" because of character dolls, paintings, solo, cosplay, etc.
Who would tag (or want to find) sisters in everyone images?
I removed the sisters tag from post #1101740. It was the only kawashiro_mitori image with that tag. I don't think it's appropriate to tag fanon family relationships between made-up original characters and characters belonging to a copyright (purple tag other than original).
However, do these images of saigyouji_yuyuko mother_and_daughter count because the relationship is visibly apparent?
I don't think the "tag what you see" policy should be taken so far. I don't think anyone has a problem with the dual_persona tag, yet it often requires just as much meta knowledge and holds just as much spoiler potential. It's usually just as easy to get around by using two direct character tags, as well. So what's the difference?
The nice thing about tags like dual_persona is that they tend to find images of a particular subject matter, and the family tags are the same. You can't point at family in an image but it's pretty clear when it is there, like with saigyouji_yuyuko mother_and_daughter. That seems perfectly taggable to me.
If there's anything wrong with the tags it's how they're currently being used, as shown by some of the current search results.
^ the dual_persona tag i believe merits a separate thread.
regarding the difference however, if you meant it's perfectly okay to leave family tags as it is because they hold the same spoiler potential and equally exhaustive maintenance (to boot if not more) as much as dual_persona, so it's perfectly fine to add more work?
like i said before, if there exists a way not to reveal a spoiler, we should do it with all our might not to. the way i understand your position, it's fine to add spoilerish tags because i'm adding the spoiler tag as well, right? i could use something like sakakibara-kun_died_from_epic_nosebleed_in_ep13 because people will not see it anyways if they are using blacklists. the 2 boys are brothers, so i'll add brothers tag even if there's nothing brotherly that a post indicate because i know, i've finished the manga?
i would find this acceptable only, if and only if there's a way to hide specific tags from users but not the whole post.
however, granting this style of tagging is correct and acceptable, let's move out of spoiler potential and move on the usefulness of family tags. as Serlo demonstrated, tags like siblings are redundant. since you know who the siblings are you can use the green color-coded chartags in searching. if an existing tag do exactly what another tag can do, do we keep both? what there exists that only something like a siblings tag can do and other tags can't?
you might ask how about unnamed characters? aren't the gender and count tags sufficient to cover all of them?
saigyouji_yuyuko mother_and_daughter : i got fairly the equivalent using saigyouji_yuyuko 2girls child or shin'en_(gyokuro_company) saigyouji_yuyuko child although longer by 1 tag. is it worth keeping the family tags then if you can shorten your search into 2 tags for the benefit of basic members?
you asked before that if family tags should get axed, it should be on the merit that they're actually useless, not because they're a spoiler threat. so how truly useful are they?
I'd like to mention that I still consider the family relationship tags useless and contrary to our policy of tagging what can be seen. You cannot possibly see the relationships from the image, unless there's some very clear textual reference in the picture itself, but in that case our current external knowledge tags would totally drown it out, making it useless as a search. I'm strongly in favour of axing them.
I'd be willing to make a limited exception for two specific cases:
Family, OTOH, could be usefully defined visually, for images where various family bonding activities amongst people of clearly differing ages take place. But keep it that way, so family goes on any applicable image, regardless of whether the characters are canonically family or not. Much like couple.
Just today, I discovered the friends tag, which is kind of closely related to the family relationship tags since it covers people who are close to each other without being blood-related, although surely many of them are in a family-like relationship. The images range from "characters looking at the viewer" to "borderline yuri" and the tag is used by only 2 people. (Tsuki no Sakura and Black Gold Saw)
Please take a look at friends and tell me if you find this tag any useful.
