The guy is Jack's original master. He tried to summon Jack by killing a prostitute, Reika, but Jack calls her master instead. Before he could order her to kill herself, Jack sliced up his jaw and the hand containing the command seals
Yeah, the Fate/Strange story (not that its official or anything...sadly) had a similar thing with Gil's friend Enkidu being summoned through a mage's wolf familiar...and the wolf becoming the master somehow.
Seems like it's a terrible idea to summon a servant with some kind of middleman huh?
Neither said: The guy is Jack's original master. He tried to summon Jack by killing a prostitute, Reika, but Jack calls her master instead. Before he could order her to kill herself, Jack sliced up his jaw and the hand containing the command seals
So his demise was warranted; if Reika was the master, wouldn't he have been unable to use the command spells anyways.
Who uses the death of a prostitute as a catalyst, I always thought the usual requirement was virgins. :heh:
Reika looks unusually calm for being an intended sacrifice.
CoCoMoo said: Who uses the death of a prostitute as a catalyst, I always thought the usual requirement was virgins. :heh:
Intentional invocation. Using the corpse of a Prostitute to summon a servant would most likely summon the one with a reputation for murdering prostitutes. it's all in their legends after all.
cd_young said: Intentional invocation. Using the corpse of a Prostitute to summon a servant would most likely summon the one with a reputation for murdering prostitutes. it's all in their legends after all.
But why would he would want to summon a servant with a reputation for killing prostitutes, wouldn't a more combat oriented Servant be better for fighting a Grail War?
CoCoMoo said: But why would he would want to summon a servant with a reputation for killing prostitutes, wouldn't a more combat oriented Servant be better for fighting a Grail War?
Because he preferred stealth over showy battling, hence aiming for the Assassin class.
CoCoMoo said: But why would he would want to summon a servant with a reputation for killing prostitutes, wouldn't a more combat oriented Servant be better for fighting a Grail War?
Not if you were deliberately fishing for an Assassin, in which case stealth, secrecy, and ability to kill quickly and silently and get away without notice are more important - and Jack has those in spades.
HaroldRowsdower said: Not if you were deliberately fishing for an Assassin, in which case stealth, secrecy, and ability to kill quickly and silently and get away without notice are more important - and Jack has those in spades.
Exactly. After all, Jack was never caught or even identified.
TheSteamyAuthor said: Exactly. After all, Jack was never caught or even identified.
Never being identified and caught by law enforcement after murdering civilians is a far cry from being able to kill hyper-paranoid, war-hardened, veterans, some of which go around wearing breastplate armor and automatically suspect anyone who isn't their master is the enemy.
Obviously all bets are off when magic is involved, but at that point you could say that for any character. (Why use an Assassin hero in the first place? Just get Archer and use a magical bow snipe the enemy masters from 100kms away.)
MMaestro said: Never being identified and caught by law enforcement after murdering civilians is a far cry from being able to kill hyper-paranoid, war-hardened, veterans, some of which go around wearing breastplate armor and automatically suspect anyone who isn't their master is the enemy.
Obviously all bets are off when magic is involved, but at that point you could say that for any character. (Why use an Assassin hero in the first place? Just get Archer and use a magical bow snipe the enemy masters from 100kms away.)
Because arrows (or any ranged attack) can be detected by servants and deflected in a lot of cases. It takes an especially sneaky legendary soul to know just how to get around that. Assassins aren't as good as archers in terms of fighting abilities, but archers aren't as good as assassins in terms of concealment (it's one of the abilities all assassins share).
Also, the stronger their legend, the stronger the legendary soul will be. Jack The Ripper is pretty well known, so his (her) legend would make her a pretty strong assassin in all likelihood.
finalagent said: Because arrows (or any ranged attack) can be detected by servants and deflected in a lot of cases. It takes an especially sneaky legendary soul to know just how to get around that. Assassins aren't as good as archers in terms of fighting abilities, but archers aren't as good as assassins in terms of concealment (it's one of the abilities all assassins share).
Why would an Assassin have the skill of detecting and deflecting an arrow shot from a magical bow from 100km away in the first place? The answer: They don't. Its a plot device to cover up the combat disparity.
MMaestro said: Why would an Assassin have the skill of detecting and deflecting an arrow shot from a magical bow from 100km away in the first place? The answer: They don't. Its a plot device to cover up the combat disparity.
They wouldn't, but Presence Concealment means that chances are the archer wouldn't be able to identify them to fire that arrow until they're already too close to take the time to do that.
HaroldRowsdower said: They wouldn't, but Presence Concealment means that chances are the archer wouldn't be able to identify them to fire that arrow until they're already too close to take the time to do that.
Why does it matter? Simply arguing "you wouldn't figure out who the Assassin is!" doesn't mean much when the conditions for victory require you to kill the others (and thereby reveal yourself).
The assassin isn't made to kill the Servants, they're a class designed to kill the masters, and use the Presence Concealment to get out before anybody can notice- the point of the class is to be able to kill quickly without revealing identity or, even if the identity is revealed, to be impossible to locate and target. In ideal conditions, an Assassin can kill all six other Masters without anybody figuring out who they are or where they're working from, leaving the enemy servants unfought and vanishing from lack of prana.
As far as we know this has never actually worked, but it works well enough in theory that somebody is willing to give it a try every time.
Versus Jack, in any case, you wouldn't be sniping her from miles away anyway, due to her unique condition. In addition to presence concealment, the only way to figure out who she is is by logical detective work due to a personal skill; with how impatient a lot of magi are, that's not happening.
The arrow situation doesn't matter because it wouldn't happen unless you somehow managed to figure out Assassin's identity via detective work.
Other servants and masters would detect the massive, blatant use of prana a 100km arrow would make and thus be able to respond. The lure of Assassin is pretty much what HaroldRowsdower said; no risk, massive, easy gain.
Well, you also have to remember Jack's Legend too. The murderer managed to murder 15 prostitutes over a three year period in one of the more densely packed slum allyways in old London. Not only was he or she ever seen or heard, but none of the murders were ever seen, except for the aftermath.
If any thing Jack the ripper, the faceless murderer of London would be the perfect Wraith-like legacy Anti-hero for the Assassin class. (like Hassain for the Heaven's Feel or Robin Hood in Fate/Extra for Archers.)
She isn't the REAL real Jack the Ripper, but she was probably an orphan from a london slum who fought for the children who weren't by killing prostitutes in the smoggy London slums, and her skills at killing lead to a resurface of Jack rumors, thus why the Throne has declared this loli murderess is "Jack the Ripper."
Presence Concealment doesn't mean much when your target starts to twitch in response to you attack. That means, the moment you attack, your presence is detected, therefore you can be attacked at which point Saber/Berserker/Caster/etc can stab/smash/spellbind/etc you.
You're also assuming that Jack's power of Presence Concealment is so absolute that, when combined with her master-less, yet able to survive/participate in the Holy Grail War status, that she can literally win the Holy Grail War by waiting for all the other masters to die out of old age.
MMaestro said: Presence Concealment doesn't mean much when your target starts to twitch in response to you attack. That means, the moment you attack, your presence is detected, therefore you can be attacked at which point Saber/Berserker/Caster/etc can stab/smash/spellbind/etc you.
You're also assuming that Jack's power of Presence Concealment is so absolute that, when combined with her master-less, yet able to survive/participate in the Holy Grail War status, that she can literally win the Holy Grail War by waiting for all the other masters to die out of old age.
Actually this Assassin has a special ability that works with her Presence Concealment that guarantees her the first strike. Basically, when she stalks someone she re-creates one of her murder scenes, with the target as the "victim". Fate and probability treat the target as one of "Jack the Ripper's victims" and, so long as it is night time, Loli-Jack will always succeed in an ambush regardless of the opponent's senses and abilities.
Combined with her Mist that scrambles your sense of direction and lowers a Servant's agility by one whole rank (and is poisonous to non-Servants) and you have what is likely the deadliest of all the canon Assassins. It gets worse if the enemy Servant or enemy Master is woman/girl. If it's night, then she'd pretty much guaranteed to kill you with impunity cuz' her ultimate attack is a one-shot, undodgeable auto-kill against anything female that can be used from any range as long as you're trapped in her mist!
Agreed! Reika looking over her as she sleeps is so damn cute it almost makes you forget she spent a good chunk of the chapter carving people up!
finalagent said: Yeah, the Fate/Strange story (not that its official or anything...sadly) had a similar thing with Gil's friend Enkidu being summoned through a mage's wolf familiar...and the wolf becoming the master somehow.
Seems like it's a terrible idea to summon a servant with some kind of middleman huh?
Only if said middleman is alive when you summon. Like Shirou in F/SN, the desire to survive can act as a catalyst to summon a Servant if you are near the required magical summoning circle. That happened with the wolf familiar and Reika.
It will act as if you summoned without an catalyst, in which case your own personality is taken into consideration and you are given a Servant who matches said personality (like serial killer Uryuu summoning Fate/Zero Caster, another evil murderer like himself).
In Fate/Strange Fake, the guy's wolf familiar activated the summoning with it's desire to live, so it got Enkidu, the closest match for it's personality (since he can talk to all beasts of the wild).
Here, Reika's will to live acted as a catalyst along with Jack's knives, so although Sagara was the actual Master, loli-Jack is a better fit, personality-wise, for Reika and wants Reika to be her Master.
It doesn't get mentioned much but Servants can refuse the summoning if they don't want to participate in the Holy Grail War. Loli-Jack probably didn't like what she sensed from the guy summoning her, so she ignored the summons even though he had her knives, but when she sensed Reika's desire to live through the summoning circle she realized she had found a potential Master who suits her own personality.
OmniGman said: Actually this Assassin has a special ability that works with her Presence Concealment that guarantees her the first strike. Basically, when she stalks someone she re-creates one of her murder scenes, with the target as the "victim". Fate and probability treat the target as one of "Jack the Ripper's victims" and, so long as it is night time, Loli-Jack will always succeed in an ambush regardless of the opponent's senses and abilities.
Combined with her Mist that scrambles your sense of direction and lowers a Servant's agility by one whole rank (and is poisonous to non-Servants) and you have what is likely the deadliest of all the canon Assassins. It gets worse if the enemy Servant or enemy Master is woman/girl. If it's night, then she'd pretty much guaranteed to kill you with impunity cuz' her ultimate attack is a one-shot, undodgeable auto-kill against anything female that can be used from any range as long as you're trapped in her mist!
And that simply goes back to the original problem : at that point you could say that for any character.
You're basically giving Jack the Assassin absolute perfect stealth AND an unavoidable, instant, untraceable one-hit kill attack AND thats on top of completely ignoring the enemy Servant's attempt to defend against said attack. Its an "I win" button. If we're going to do that, why can't we just do that for all the characters?
Lets give Archer the ability to snipe every single living being in a 100km radius with a single shot! Lets give Caster the ability to cast planet shattering spells! Lets give Saber to ability to cut time and space! Etc.
Presence Concealment is an absolute stealth tool, they are invisible and silent. It only fails when the assassin attacks.
Also, Jack's attack is a Curse. A Curse that inscribes the anger of the 80,000 orphans that were left to die by their prostitute mothers. It's an instant kill because it is the perfect recreation of Jack's Murdering style, that's why it's her Noble Phantasm. And it's only effective against women, at night, while it's Misty. If any one of those three criteria are not met, it's only a strong attack, it loses it's curse ability and is considered physical attack, which is dangerous for a servant with E endurance.
cd_young said: Well, you also have to remember Jack's Legend too. The murderer managed to murder 15 prostitutes over a three year period in one of the more densely packed slum allyways in old London. Not only was he or she ever seen or heard, but none of the murders were ever seen, except for the aftermath.
If any thing Jack the ripper, the faceless murderer of London would be the perfect Wraith-like legacy Anti-hero for the Assassin class. (like Hassain for the Heaven's Feel or Robin Hood in Fate/Extra for Archers.)
She isn't the REAL real Jack the Ripper, but she was probably an orphan from a london slum who fought for the children who weren't by killing prostitutes in the smoggy London slums, and her skills at killing lead to a resurface of Jack rumors, thus why the Throne has declared this loli murderess is "Jack the Ripper."
Nah, it's confirmed. She's the real thing; she killed prostitutes out of a want to get closer to where she was born, where it was 'warm'.
MMaestro said: Lets give Archer the ability to snipe every single living being in a 100km radius with a single shot! Lets give Caster the ability to cast planet shattering spells! Lets give Saber to ability to cut time and space! Etc.
They could actually do that you know. F/SN Archer could do that with Broken Phantasm / Caladbolg II, Gilgamesh has an Anti World Noble Phantasm too. Lancer has a One Hit kill similar to Jack's Noble Phantasm (Gae Bolg) in which one's survival is by luck only. To an extent, F/SN Caster is from the age of divinity, meaning if it was a full out magecraft battle, she'll win hands down.
Also, Jack's Maria The Ripper (Her One Hit Noble Phantasm) is a Rank D skill without meeting the conditions. If she does, the curse of "the tragedy and will of the 80 thousand children abandoned in London by prostitute mothers." will empower it to actually kill the said female by manifesting the knives within the said victim's body. Not only that, but attack is communicated as a "Curse", not as a "Technique by utilizing the Noble Phantasm as a set of knives". This means Physical Defense is impossible, but evasion is possible via resistance to curses
MMaestro said: And that simply goes back to the original problem : at that point you could say that for any character.
You're basically giving Jack the Assassin absolute perfect stealth AND an unavoidable, instant, untraceable one-hit kill attack AND thats on top of completely ignoring the enemy Servant's attempt to defend against said attack. Its an "I win" button. If we're going to do that, why can't we just do that for all the characters?
Lets give Archer the ability to snipe every single living being in a 100km radius with a single shot! Lets give Caster the ability to cast planet shattering spells! Lets give Saber to ability to cut time and space! Etc.
As Raymoo points out, that IS the case for most Servants! TypeMoon fights are all about hax-abilities. Saber isn't considered so tough just because she has great stats (though they play a vital role). She's considered one of the best Servants because of Excalibur (and Avalon, but she lost that due to Kiritsugu).
Avalon means invincibility against even Gilgamesh's planet-busting Enuma Elish and Excalibur's beam slash will only lose to Enuma Elish and Fragarach.
Gilgamesh could defeat almost anyone with his arsenal of haxxed magical weapons if he wasn't so arrogant and had half a brain (the man has an anicent spaceship with magical nukes)!
Hercules has 12 freakin' lives, can ignore any attack that isn't at least A-Rank (it literally has to be listed as A-Rank, otherwise, he will ignore it because God Hand gives him DBZ-power-levels-are-everything-style invulnerability)! Then there's Nine Lives~The Hundred Shooting Heads (basically, if he has a bow, spear, or sword he can launch 100 near simaltaneous attacks aimed at all your vital points)! If Illya hadn't been such a spiteful brat and kept him locked in Mad Enhancement he'd have one-shotted everybody else save maybe Gilgamesh!
By comparison, perfect ambush-stealth and a one-shot kill against women if three different conditions are met is nothing to brag about! It's all a moot point anyway if the Masters hide and she or her Master can't find them! Compared to Gilgamesh or Hercules Berserker she's downright balanced!
OmniGman said: As Raymoo points out, that IS the case for most Servants! TypeMoon fights are all about hax-abilities.
I know, but then why all the excitement about Jack's abilities? In a battle where each side marches around with doomsday devices, stealth doesn't exactly seem very practical does it?
MMaestro said: I know, but then why all the excitement about Jack's abilities? In a battle where each side marches around with doomsday devices, stealth doesn't exactly seem very practical does it?
The thing is, one important point about the war is that the magi still have to preserve the secrets of magic, so a lot of those Servants can't just go throwing around their doomsday devices otherwise they'd draw too much attention and then they've got the Mage Association and the Church hunting them (or willing to destroy the whole city to eliminate all witnesses).
By comparison stealth is very practical, wastes less energy (as opposed to said doomsday devices), draws less attention, and is perfect for avoiding getting hit by said doomsday devices. You have to find someone to shoot your trump card at, and stealth circumvents that issue nicely. You aren't going to find her until after she's attacked you or killed your Master (in which case you can no longer throw around hax powers anyway because you either fade away or are desperately conserving prana as you flee in an attempt to find a new Master pronto).
Hercules was insanely powerful but eats up prana like crazy. If someone killed Illya he'd fade away shortly after because he requires too much prana simply to exist. Gilgamesh can kill his Master because he's an Archer and get's Independent Action and Arturia had so much of her own prana she could last for a while even though Shirou wasn't giving her any prana due to their lousy connection, but most Servants don't have that luxury.
MMaestro said: I know, but then why all the excitement about Jack's abilities? In a battle where each side marches around with doomsday devices, stealth doesn't exactly seem very practical does it?
It does when you need to sneak past the servant with the doomsday Noble Phantasm and get their master. Unless the Servant is an Archer, they won't last past the assassination attempt.
OmniGman said: The thing is, one important point about the war is that the magi still have to preserve the secrets of magic, so a lot of those Servants can't just go throwing around their doomsday devices otherwise they'd draw too much attention and then they've got the Mage Association and the Church hunting them (or willing to destroy the whole city to eliminate all witnesses).
Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't one of the Holy Grail Wars end with a massive fire resulting in a magically scarred land? I admit, I'm not an expert in the Nasuverse but I'm pretty sure a mysterious and never publicly explained fire resulting in multiple fatalities ranks pretty high on the "hard to conceal from civilians" meter.
cd_young said: It does when you need to sneak past the servant with the doomsday Noble Phantasm and get their master. Unless the Servant is an Archer, they won't last past the assassination attempt.
And that simply goes back to my point of Jack being a "I win" character. You've already given Jack a "one-hit-kill, unavoidable, undetectable until you are already dead"-attack PLUS you're giving Jack a "you don't see me, you don't hear me, you don't sense me, NO MATTER WHAT"-ability.
While I can see how the doomsday devices of other characters can be limited (as OmniGman points out), I don't see how Jack's is limited. At MOST, the only thing limiting Jack is the fact that people MIGHT get suspicious about the sudden uptick of murders in town. (Which doesn't say much since Jack can investigate/stalk anyone with impunity.)
MMaestro said: Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't one of the Holy Grail Wars end with a massive fire resulting in a magically scarred land? I admit, I'm not an expert in the Nasuverse but I'm pretty sure a mysterious and never publicly explained fire resulting in multiple fatalities ranks pretty high on the "hard to conceal from civilians" meter.
The fire was covered up as an accident.
And that simply goes back to my point of Jack being a "I win" character. You've already given Jack a "one-hit-kill, unavoidable, undetectable until you are already dead"-attack PLUS you're giving Jack a "you don't see me, you don't hear me, you don't sense me, NO MATTER WHAT"-ability.
While I can see how the doomsday devices of other characters can be limited (as OmniGman points out), I don't see how Jack's is limited. At MOST, the only thing limiting Jack is the fact that people MIGHT get suspicious about the sudden uptick of murders in town. (Which doesn't say much since Jack can investigate/stalk anyone with impunity.)
Her Curse only works when three rules are met. Otherwise it's a Ranked D attack from a servent with E strength. And Assassins are always the weakest servents stat wise, that's why they're assassins, they don't fight directly they use subterfuge and stealth to gain initiative and advantage. Why is that so hard to understand?
MMaestro said: Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't one of the Holy Grail Wars end with a massive fire resulting in a magically scarred land? I admit, I'm not an expert in the Nasuverse but I'm pretty sure a mysterious and never publicly explained fire resulting in multiple fatalities ranks pretty high on the "hard to conceal from civilians" meter.
And that simply goes back to my point of Jack being a "I win" character. You've already given Jack a "one-hit-kill, unavoidable, undetectable until you are already dead"-attack PLUS you're giving Jack a "you don't see me, you don't hear me, you don't sense me, NO MATTER WHAT"-ability.
While I can see how the doomsday devices of other characters can be limited (as OmniGman points out), I don't see how Jack's is limited. At MOST, the only thing limiting Jack is the fact that people MIGHT get suspicious about the sudden uptick of murders in town. (Which doesn't say much since Jack can investigate/stalk anyone with impunity.)
You must have missed my point of her stealth only being a factor if she can FIND her prey! She doesn't have superhuman tracking skills(and her stealth is only absolute as long as its night, during the day you can detect her with a Luck check).
Even if her prey's location is known it's still worthless if they are hiding in some magically protected fortress (like the hotel where Kayneth had rigged the entire floor he was was on with magical traps; they don't have bombs to force him out like Kiritsugu)!
In F/SN loli-Jack could be a big deal because Shinji/Rider, Shirou/Saber, Rin/Acher, and Illya/Berserker all went out and hunted for enemies (Illya and Rin are especially screwed though Archer can avenge Rin at least), but her skills mean squat against Kotomine who remained hiding in plain sight as the referee at the Church, his identity as Lancer's Master unknown, until the very end, and Caster (unless Reika and Assassin-Jack are lucky enough to stumble upon her while she's at the school in the Unlimited Blade Works scenario). She can't even sneak into Caster's base at the Ryuudou Temple because of the barrier surrounding the entire mountain except the stairs to the entrance (and Caster would likely have the entrance defended by some magical trap now that she can't summon her own Asassin to guard it).
In Fate/Zero she's even more screwed. Caster and Ryuunosuke were constantly on the move and hiding. Kariya had no set base and tracking him could be difficult (remember Kotomine had 80 Assassins looking all over the city as scouts). Tokiomi never left the Tohsaka mansion which had magical barriers and other protections. Kayneth had his Hotel of Doom to hide in. Irisviel, Kiritsugu, and Saber originally hid out in the Einzbern mansion which has a detection barrier around the entire damn forest it's in! Even if she could sneak in, Kiritsugu is the real Master while everyone else thinks its Irisviel until later so killing Irisviel is useless (save for pissing Kiritsugu and Saber off) and Saber has ridiculously high Magic Resistence so she can likely tank the auto-kill curse.
Compared to other Servants loli-Jack is actually pretty damn balanced!
cd_young said: The fire was covered up as an accident.
And thats called cognitive estrangement. I know its fiction, but if the Church can control THAT level of information, in addition to the fact that regular civilians STILL live in the area, concealing the existence of magic should be an absolute joke.
cd_young said: Her Curse only works when three rules are met. Otherwise it's a Ranked D attack from a servent with E strength. And Assassins are always the weakest servents stat wise, that's why they're assassins, they don't fight directly they use subterfuge and stealth to gain initiative and advantage. Why is that so hard to understand?
So what? Masters are still human, so a rank D attack is still more than enough to kill them. Jack slits your throat with her rank D attack, GG, you drown in your own blood.
And as you yourself point out, Jack's strength lies in her stealth abilties, so why does it matter if it takes time for her attack power to boost? Rank D attack isn't good enough? Ok, fine, Jack stalks you with her god-stealth until her Curse activates and she insta-gibs you with her attack.
OmniGman said: You must have missed my point of her stealth only being a factor if she can FIND her prey! She doesn't have superhuman tracking skills(and her stealth is only absolute as long as its night, during the day you can detect her with a Luck check).
Um, ok? So instead of searching 24/7, she only searches at night. Whats the time limit for the Grail War again? Oh thats right, THERE IS NO TIME LIMIT.
OmniGman said: Even if her prey's location is known it's still worthless if they are hiding in some magically protected fortress (like the hotel where Kayneth had rigged the entire floor he was was on with magical traps; they don't have bombs to force him out like Kiritsugu)!
Um ok? I had no idea being an Assassin meant you weren't allowed to steal/use explosives.
OmniGman said: In F/SN loli-Jack could be a big deal because Shinji/Rider, Shirou/Saber, Rin/Acher, and Illya/Berserker all went out and hunted for enemies (Illya and Rin are especially screwed though Archer can avenge Rin at least), but her skills mean squat against Kotomine who remained hiding in plain sight as the referee at the Church, his identity as Lancer's Master unknown, until the very end, and Caster (unless Reika and Assassin-Jack are lucky enough to stumble upon her while she's at the school in the Unlimited Blade Works scenario).
Yeah, because Assassins put their faith in strangers that easily.
OmniGman said: She can't even sneak into Caster's base at the Ryuudou Temple because of the barrier surrounding the entire mountain except the stairs to the entrance (and Caster would likely have the entrance defended by some magical trap now that she can't summon her own Asassin to guard it).
I can see that, but thats nothing but fan speculation. If we're going to pull that crap, I say Jack should be able to trick another Master/Servant into attacking Caster.
OmniGman said: In Fate/Zero she's even more screwed. Caster and Ryuunosuke were constantly on the move and hiding. Kariya had no set base and tracking him could be difficult (remember Kotomine had 80 Assassins looking all over the city as scouts). Tokiomi never left the Tohsaka mansion which had magical barriers and other protections. Kayneth had his Hotel of Doom to hide in. Irisviel, Kiritsugu, and Saber originally hid out in the Einzbern mansion which has a detection barrier around the entire damn forest it's in! Even if she could sneak in, Kiritsugu is the real Master while everyone else thinks its Irisviel until later so killing Irisviel is useless (save for pissing Kiritsugu and Saber off) and Saber has ridiculously high Magic Resistence so she can likely tank the auto-kill curse.
Compared to other Servants loli-Jack is actually pretty damn balanced!
Artificial plot time limitations. The story wouldn't go anywhere is someone didn't make a move and that puts Jack at an inherent disadvantage. Stealth attackers don't do well when they're told "THIS IS TAKING TOO LONG! GO ATTACK SO WE CAN SEE SOME ACTION!" (You honestly think that turtling in a mansion/mountain/hotel is a good strategy? We just went over how the Church can cover up a massive fire in a metropolitan area. You think the fire of a mansion/mountain/hotel is hard to cover up?)
MMaestro said: And thats called cognitive estrangement. I know its fiction, but if the Church can control THAT level of information, in addition to the fact that regular civilians STILL live in the area, concealing the existence of magic should be an absolute joke.
And yet, Risei suddenly decides to sic every other Master on Ryuunosuke/Caster because their kidnapping lots of kids is putting the existence of magic at risk of exposure. Just because Kotomine probably didn't give a damn about exposing magic (after all, he fully expected the world to be destroyed at the end of the Fifth Grail War once Angra Mainyu was released) doesn't mean other moderators would be so lenient.
And how is the covering up of the fire as an accident proof that they can cover up anything? Lots of infamous real-life fires were either never explained or reported as accidents.
So what? Masters are still human, so a rank D attack is still more than enough to kill them. Jack slits your throat with her rank D attack, GG, you drown in your own blood.
And as you yourself point out, Jack's strength lies in her stealth abilties, so why does it matter if it takes time for her attack power to boost? Rank D attack isn't good enough? Ok, fine, Jack stalks you with her god-stealth until her Curse activates and she insta-gibs you with her attack.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding but unless Jack uses her attack at full power it's just a physical blow IIRC meaning she has to go up to the Master. It only becomes an undodgeable curse if all three conditions are met, so she needs that absolute stealth which only works during night, and she'd better pray that the Servant doesn't have a an Instinct ranking of at least B or her Mist won't hinder them if they have enough Independent Action to retaliate. As for stalking a Master until all the conditions are met, again, she needs to find them before they find her Master, two, they need to be where she can reach them, and three, if the Master is male she will never meet all three conditions no matter how much she stalks them. You seem to think tracking down Magi is a cakewalk for what basically amounts to two amateurs (Reika is a prostitute with no talent or experience with magic, and loli-Jack only ever stalked prey that couldn't fight back when she was alive so she has no practical experience with strong enemies).
Um, ok? So instead of searching 24/7, she only searches at night. Whats the time limit for the Grail War again? Oh thats right, THERE IS NO TIME LIMIT.
And while she is only searching at night every other Master is searching 24/7 and have acces to familiars that can spy all over town while the Master stays holed up nice and safe at his/her base.
Um ok? I had no idea being an Assassin meant you weren't allowed to steal/use explosives.
Would Reika or loli-Jack even think of stealing explosives and bombing the hotel? How would they even know Kayneth was there?
Yeah, because Assassins put their faith in strangers that easily.
What does trust have to do with anything? Kotomine was the ref for the Fifth War. Attacking him means the Church is going to come after your ass. It didn't matter in Fate/stay Night because they exposed Kotomine's crimes in the end, but until he revealed himself as a bad guy no one even considered attacking him save Caster and only because she figured she was going to win and get her wish before the Church could retaliate. They didn't like or trust him, but they had no reason to suspect he was a Master. Even if loli-Jack decided to attack him for no good reason, one, Kirei actually has resistence to curses (he tanked True Assassin's Zabinaya: Delusional Heartbeat because it's a curse and his heart is literally made of curse magic), and, two, attacking him in the Church means getting blindsided by Gilgamesh which is instant-death for loli-Jack.
I can see that, but thats nothing but fan speculation. If we're going to pull that crap, I say Jack should be able to trick another Master/Servant into attacking Caster.
Is she even smart enough to do that? Maybe her staking out the mountain and deciding to exploit another Master who decided to attack Caster themselves, but she doesn't strike me as sane enough to somehow manuver other Masters/Servants into doing her dirty work, especially since she has no way of tracking other Masters and Servants save stumbling upon hem by chance. As for fan speculation, everything in Caster's stat sheet shows she has what it takes to develop magical traps (she can carve up Shirou's corpse and actually turn it into an artificial Noble Phantasm; she's that good). They won't mean much to most strong Servants but loli-Jack isn't actually that strong so she'd be in trouble.
Artificial plot time limitations. The story wouldn't go anywhere is someone didn't make a move and that puts Jack at an inherent disadvantage. Stealth attackers don't do well when they're told "THIS IS TAKING TOO LONG! GO ATTACK SO WE CAN SEE SOME ACTION!" (You honestly think that turtling in a mansion/mountain/hotel is a good strategy? We just went over how the Church can cover up a massive fire in a metropolitan area. You think the fire of a mansion/mountain/hotel is hard to cover up?)
You're also neglecting the fact that Archer/Gilgamesh has been all over the damn place and Tokiomi has not once left his mansion. The Assassins traveled all over the city acting as spies and Kirei stayed at the Church most of the time save when he fought Maiya and then Maiya and Iris. Servants can travel away from their Masters. Rider/Iskander does it when he travels along the river to collect samples for Waver to use in his search for Caster's base. It' just that Saber prefers to keep Iris close all the time when feasible and Iskander prefers the same with Waver.
Turtling in your base actually is a viable strategy! Tokiomi was doing just fine until Kotomine stabbed him in the back at Gilgamesh's behest. Kiritsugu would have had to go to his mansion, disable the barriers and magical traps, all without alerting Tokiomi, Kirei, or Gilgamesh, and then confront Tokiomi before he could call Gilgamesh or Kirei to his side if he wanted to avoid a fight. I can't see loli-Jack pulling that off.
Kayneth was out and about because he was acting like a bigshot to impress Sophia. Kiritsugu was out and about because he had everyone thinking Iris was Saber's Master initially and he prefers sniping (plus he had Maiya for emergency back-up). Kariya was out and about because Zouken hates his guts and basically threw him into the War expecting him to lose (and he was slowly going insane with pain). Ryuunosuke is nuts and even then he was rarely away from Caster, who never left his base unless it was for some pre-arranged attack designed to lure Saber out.
Shirou was a dumbass and hiding wasn't an option if he wanted to protect innocents. Rin wasn't versatile enough to control Archer from the safety of her mansion as Tokiomi did with his Servant, and even then she was just as out-of-her-depth as Shirou was due to her overconfidence. Shinji was an even bigger dumbass than Shirou and even he preferred to remain in hiding. No one even knew Sakura was Rider's true Master and unless it was the Heaven's Feel route they never figured it out! Caster almost never left the mountain and it was damn near impossible to figure out Kuzuki was her Master as he had no Command Spells and no magic to detect. It was basically dumb luck that Shirou found out from Issei. Illya was overconfident because her Servant was the strongest in the War bar Gilgamesh (whom she couldn't have known about). Nobody even suspected Kotomine of being anything other than the creepy referee until the very end and he had Gilgamesh backing him.
Stick her in F/SN and loli-Jack is screwed unless she gets insanely lucky (or has a way more competent Master than Reika). Stick loli-Jack in Fate/Zero and she's even more screwed, even if you gave her a more competent Master.
OmniGman said: And yet, Risei suddenly decides to sic every other Master on Ryuunosuke/Caster because their kidnapping lots of kids is putting the existence of magic at risk of exposure.
Again, thats cognitive estrangement. You're telling me that the Church can cover up a mysterious and never publicly explained fire resulting in multiple fatalities. But they can't cover up the disappearance of a few children.
OmniGman said: And how is the covering up of the fire as an accident proof that they can cover up anything? Lots of infamous real-life fires were either never explained or reported as accidents.
Uh, because you gave me crap about blowing up a hotel? Apparently, hotel fires are uncommon and have to be heavily investigated, while fires that engulf ENTIRE PARKS can be covered up as mere "accidents".
OmniGman said: Would Reika or loli-Jack even think of stealing explosives and bombing the hotel?
Ok, now you're just pulling shit out of your ass.
OmniGman said: Kotomine was the ref for the Fifth War. Attacking him means the Church is going to come after your ass.
Who cares? If you go after Kotomine, you win the war, get the Holy Grail and fuck the Church who rigged the match (and thats assuming Kotomine doesn't blow his own cover when his Servant jumps in at the last moment to protect Kotomine). If you don't go after Kotomine, you die by a thousand cuts (so to speak).
OmniGman said: Is she even smart enough to do that?
Are you even trying anymore?
OmniGman said: I can't see loli-Jack pulling that off.
Good for you. Keep making up unfounded speculation.
OmniGman said: Stick her in F/SN and loli-Jack is screwed unless she gets insanely lucky (or has a way more competent Master than Reika). Stick loli-Jack in Fate/Zero and she's even more screwed, even if you gave her a more competent Master.
Um, your entire basis seems to be "Jack wouldn't have figured out who are the Masters and Servants because shes an idiot, the Servants don't act in an obvious 'hey look at me, I'm a Servant' manner and (most) Masters are hidden behind gargantuan magical barriers."
One thing, The Church and the Magic Association agreed to host the Holy Grail war jointly. Also, the entire city of Fuyuki is technically owned by the Toshaka family, since Tokimi's ancestors donated the land for the war.
The two different factions also have deep connections and are able to spin any and all information that enters and leaves the entire city.
Another point is, if you attack the Overseer of the Holy Grail war, you not only get disqualified, but both sides, the Church and Magic Association will exterminate you.
Unrelated to that, both of you are assuming Assassin Jack is either too stupid or too intelligent to fail or succeed. She is a 12 year old prostitute murderer who has been given a memory packet from the throne to be able to exist and co-exist in modern day Japan.
She is not a tracker, since she has no personal or class skills that say such. She is a stalker and a stealthy killer. What that explains is that she is skilled at targeting one person, and using her abilities, can follow them without any chance of failure (at night) or signs of her following them (at night), during day time, her stalking skill is subject to a LUC check to keep perfectly concealed. And at her leisure she can attack and kill them. Her abilities of surgical precision allows her to contain the mess and her Personal version of presence concealment allows her to mask or destroy any direct evidence that points to her being the killer and allows her to implicate any and ever other servant of the crime.
On top of her ability to erase her presence and either escape or hide from everyone except those who can directly sense prana constructs (which not many outside casters, spirits, Homunculus and Church executioners.)
Jack is not very good at direct combat, but Assassins are never meant to fight a servant fairly, They're assassins, they're heroes without legends because they're the heroes of the shadows. They're whispered about and used to frighten children.
All in all, Jack is only slightly more effective at her role as Assassin, unlike all the Hassans who either excelled at information gathering or esoteric assassination methods, she is meant to kill people in brutally simple ways, as such is skilled at several kinds or assassination, which naturally tips the power scale between her and the Hassashins in her favor due to sheer versatility.
In regards to the Church and the Magic Association, you're still overlooking the fact that the Overseer was still a participant in the Holy Grail War. If you keep that in mind, the impartiality of the Church is obviously compromised and therefore shouldn't be taken seriously. If everything went to plan, Kotomine would have simply killed the last man standing and won thanks to his "I'm the Overseer! You can't attack me!"-invulnerability.
As for Jack, I don't disagree that I am sometimes exaggerating the extent of her powers/intelligence but the idea that she is somehow weak or unable to stalk enemies without relying on luck is absurd. In fact, you even admit that Jack was never meant to fight a servant fairly. If THAT holds true, why should the strength of the enemy Servant matter? Shes an ASSASSIN, she should be focusing on the squishy, human Master standing behind the Servant.
MMaestro said: In regards to the Church and the Magic Association, you're still overlooking the fact that the Overseer was still a participant in the Holy Grail War. If you keep that in mind, the impartiality of the Church is obviously compromised and therefore shouldn't be taken seriously. If everything went to plan, Kotomine would have simply killed the last man standing and won thanks to his "I'm the Overseer! You can't attack me!"-invulnerability.
As for Jack, I don't disagree that I am sometimes exaggerating the extent of her powers/intelligence but the idea that she is somehow weak or unable to stalk enemies without relying on luck is absurd. In fact, you even admit that Jack was never meant to fight a servant fairly. If THAT holds true, why should the strength of the enemy Servant matter? Shes an ASSASSIN, she should be focusing on the squishy, human Master standing behind the Servant.
Well, for one, the Church wants the Holy Grail, because it's a holy grail anyway, they didn't know that Kotomine was also a magus or that he was a nihilistic psychopath. And he was only a participant in the 4th Heaven's Feel, his father Reisei was the Overseer at the time.
And on to Jack, her personal stalking skill states that it only works effectively at night, which following the Jack the Ripper legend is true, since (s)he only operated at night. Day time is another matter entirely. And to the other point, everyone who bothers to look up the classes knows Assassins are meant as Master killers.
cd_young said: Well, for one, the Church wants the Holy Grail, because it's a holy grail anyway, they didn't know that Kotomine was also a magus or that he was a nihilistic psychopath. And he was only a participant in the 4th Heaven's Feel, his father Reisei was the Overseer at the time.
Doesn't matter. By your logic, Jack should engage in a seven-way free-for-all deathmatch and not be allowed to attack the seventh player. Common sense dictates that Jack would lose.
cd_young said: And on to Jack, her personal stalking skill states that it only works effectively at night, which following the Jack the Ripper legend is true, since (s)he only operated at night. Day time is another matter entirely. And to the other point, everyone who bothers to look up the classes knows Assassins are meant as Master killers.
1. Are we seriously going to argue that Jack is gimped on account of her inability to stalk during the daytime? 2. Whats your point? Last time I checked, humans typically died if you slit their throat.
MMaestro said: Doesn't matter. By your logic, Jack should engage in a seven-way free-for-all deathmatch and not be allowed to attack the seventh player. Common sense dictates that Jack would lose.
My Logic? I never said she'd willingly engage in something she know would be her utter slaughter. You mean to talk to the other person you've been arguing with. I've always advocated that Jack should play to her strengths which is, being a night stalking murderer.
1. Are we seriously going to argue that Jack is gimped on account of her inability to stalk during the daytime? 2. Whats your point? Last time I checked, humans typically died if you slit their throat.
1. She isn't gimped. Her personal stalking skill is hampered because it's easier to see someone dressed in all black in the day then it is in pitch darkness. It's simple logic.
2. Magus all learn how to protect themselves, aside from most being able to extent a bounded field that notifies them of anyone entering (except Servants that have Presence Concealment), they're also all taught how to use Reinforcement magic to make their bodies almost as tough as steel. You need either a conceptual weapon more powerful then their Reinforcement, like a Noble Phantasm, or a weapon designed to kill magi, like Kirigitsu's Thompson Contender custom.
Also, every time you respond to me it seems your rebuttals get dumber and dumber in their scope of being idiotic.
cd_young said: My Logic? I never said she'd willingly engage in something she know would be her utter slaughter. You mean to talk to the other person you've been arguing with. I've always advocated that Jack should play to her strengths which is, being a night stalking murderer.
Who said Jack had a choice? Playing to her strengths sounds great in theory, but no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.
cd_young said: 1. She isn't gimped. Her personal stalking skill is hampered because it's easier to see someone dressed in all black in the day then it is in pitch darkness. It's simple logic.
2. Magus all learn how to protect themselves, aside from most being able to extent a bounded field that notifies them of anyone entering (except Servants that have Presence Concealment), they're also all taught how to use Reinforcement magic to make their bodies almost as tough as steel. You need either a conceptual weapon more powerful then their Reinforcement, like a Noble Phantasm, or a weapon designed to kill magi, like Kirigitsu's Thompson Contender custom.
Also, every time you respond to me it seems your rebuttals get dumber and dumber in their scope of being idiotic.
1. I'm not the one who implied shes gimped. You were the one who implied that shes gimped during the daytime.
cd_young said: her personal stalking skill states that it only works effectively at night
2. Unless you want to argue that all magus can Reinforce their bodies to the point that their throats can repel rank D attacks, I don't see your point. You admitted that Jack's non-Curse amplified attack is :
cd_young said: Otherwise it's a Ranked D attack from a servent with E strength.
If thats the case, Jack insta-loses (against non-females). Why? Because Jack is SO WEAK that a Master can laugh her off by merely Reinforcing their bodies.
MMaestro said: Who said Jack had a choice? Playing to her strengths sounds great in theory, but no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.
Her master in this war, is not a magus, nor is she anyone who's had any meaningful relations with a magus, aside from the fucktard who tried to murder her, as such she will more then likely let Jack do whatever she wants.
1. I'm not the one who implied shes gimped. You were the one who implied that shes gimped during the daytime.
Look I'll just copy/paste the fucking skill for you:
"Murderer of the Misty Night is a skill associated with the Servant's nature as a serial killer rather than as an Assassin, which permits preemptive strike against all opponents. However, unconditional success of the skill is possible only at night. Requires a successful Luck Check for use during daytime.
Know what her rank for this skill is? It's rank A. so even if she gets a bad LUC (which is E, but her rank in this skill more or less overrides it anyway) check, she'd still have the advantage.
2. Unless you want to argue that all magus can Reinforce their bodies to the point that their throats can repel rank D attacks, I don't see your point. You admitted that Jack's non-Curse amplified attack is :
cd_young said: Otherwise it's a Ranked D attack from a servent with E strength.
If thats the case, Jack insta-loses (against non-females). Why? Because Jack is SO WEAK that a Master can laugh her off by merely Reinforcing their bodies.
You don't know much about the Fate/Stay night universe do you? A Rank D Noble Phantasm would equal a Rank A physical attack (which is something along the lines of something that can destroy tanks.) Jack is a Loli, Jack is designed to murder women, but jack is not weak.
Her stats with having a Non-Magus as a Master is on par with the Assassin summoned by an Executioner/Magus who can physically go toe to toe with Servants (100face Hassan's endurance is one rank higher) and the Assassin summoned by am unkillable vampire magus (Shaytin Hassan's str is 3 ranks higher) They rank better then her in places, but overall the same stats.
cd_young said: Her master in this war, is not a magus, nor is she anyone who's had any meaningful relations with a magus, aside from the fucktard who tried to murder her, as such she will more then likely let Jack do whatever she wants.
Whats your point? Shes still a Servant.
cd_young said: However, unconditional success of the skill is possible only at night. Requires a successful Luck Check for use during daytime.
In other words: Gimped during the daytime.
cd_young said: You don't know much about the Fate/Stay night universe do you? A Rank D Noble Phantasm would equal a Rank A physical attack (which is something along the lines of something that can destroy tanks.) Jack is a Loli, Jack is designed to murder women, but jack is not weak.
Her stats with having a Non-Magus as a Master is on par with the Assassin summoned by an Executioner/Magus who can physically go toe to toe with Servants (100face Hassan's endurance is one rank higher) and the Assassin summoned by am unkillable vampire magus (Shaytin Hassan's str is 3 ranks higher) They rank better then her in places, but overall the same stats.
I know a Rank D Noble Phantasm has a Rank A physical attack, my point was why did you bring up the magus ability to Reinforce their bodies if Jack can blow through the protection regardless?
cd_young said: Know what? I don't care anymore. Think what you want, I am fucking done talking to a brick wall.
Tell me about it. He's freakin' thickheaded. The man just refuses to look at facts and seems to operate under the assumption that loli-Jack and Reika will have info that only the fans of the series (and a few certain major characters) had access to.
"Loli-Jack should just attack Kotomine"... even though she doesn't know he's a Master (no one knew he was a Master) and even though killing him won't get her the Holy Grail (it only manifests when enough Servants have been killed and even then you have to know where the Lesser Grail is; in Fate/stay Night, Illya's heart was the Lesser Grail and only a mere handful of people knew this; Reika and loli-Jack wouldn't know). The referee's only job is to explain the rules, cover-up evidence of magic's existence, and provide shelter for Masters who have lost their Servants and want to quit (and maybe confirm the winner). Nothing about his role would make Reika or loli-Jack think he's a threat (assuming they even knew about him).
I get the feeling MMaestro doesn't actually know any of the finer details of the Fate franchise; in fact, I'm certain he doesn't. Hell, he clearly doesn't know some of the major details (like the fact that no one knew or had any reason to believe that Kotomine was a Master, and attacking him without evidence means two majorly powerful magic organizations will come after you ASAP; the only reason Shirou and Rin aren't being hunted like dogs is because Rin had the credibility and evidence to prove that Kirei was up to no good), so I have no clue why he ignores the facts we are stating.
As for saying "Screw the Church, they are clearly cheating", only a few people knew the Church was cheating in the 4th War and the Church itself wasn't actually cheating in the 5th, just Kotomine who had his own agenda. Again, this isn't something Reika and loli-Jack would know.
As for investgating the park fire and the kidnapping of children. The reason everyone was worried about Caster is cuz' dozens of children disappearing within the span of a few days is something that can draw national attention and the media coverage won't go away until the kids are found dead or alive (magic hypnosis isn't going to make parents forget their children disappeared). But a fire breaking out, even one that killed a lot of people? Have local authorities under your thumb "investigate" that. That's something that can easily be passed off as a horrible accident and with a proper explanation there won't be any investigation by people outside the Church and the Mage Association's influence.
OmniGman said: Tell me about it. He's freakin' thickheaded. The man just refuses to look at facts and seems to operate under the assumption that loli-Jack and Reika will have info that only the fans of the series (and a few certain major characters) had access to.
More words...
It's not even that. He's assume Jack-chan is useless in daylight when her Murderer of the Misty Night personal skill will still function due to her abnormally high rank in the skill regardless of her actual Luck statistic.
Not to mention him thinking Reika will actually know what to do in the grail war. She's basically Shiro, minus his magus training, minus Rin and minus Avalon. Her letting Jack do what she pleases will be her only real tactic.
Wow, way to ignore massive portions of my posts. I can't even bring myself to correct you.
cd_young said: It's not even that. He's assume Jack-chan is useless in daylight when her Murderer of the Misty Night personal skill will still function due to her abnormally high rank in the skill regardless of her actual Luck statistic.
I never said "Gimped = Useless."
Your entire basis is that shes not hindered in the daytime because it relies on her high Luck statistic. That means, "if she succeeds her luck rolls, shes badass. Just ignore what'll happen if she FAILS her luck rolls, is spotted out in the open and can't activate her ultimate skill cause the conditions haven't been fulfilled."
MMaestro said: Wow, way to ignore massive portions of my posts. I can't even bring myself to correct you.
I never said "Gimped = Useless."
Your entire basis is that shes not hindered in the daytime because it relies on her high Luck statistic. That means, "if she succeeds her luck rolls, shes badass. Just ignore what'll happen if she FAILS her luck rolls, is spotted out in the open and can't activate her ultimate skill cause the conditions haven't been fulfilled."
And yet you ignore the portions of your post that mine does refer to.
As for her being screwed if she fails her Luck check, she can still create the mist for cover (and if the enemy Servant's Master is nearby the Servant will have to go rescue him/her as the mist is toxic) and try to flee. Nevermind that, as cd_young points out, Reika is just letting Jack do her own thing and Jack hates going out during the day (she's both smart enough to play to her strengths and hates being seen in her stripperific outfit).
As for her being screwed in general, well, yeah. I did mention that. She could only win in FSN or Zero if she was given knowledge that only the fans have access to. It's not necessarily because she's gimped so much as because she's not as haxx as the the other Servants.
The HGW is pretty damn unfair to Casters and Assassins alike in general (for Casters, all the best Servants have high Magic Resistence anyway, and for Assassins they have to find enemy Masters and break through any defenses said Masters may have at their bases, all undetected). It's just that the Assassins in Zero and FSN were especially screwed over by their Masters.
Actually, most Servants were gimped by lousy and/or stupid Masters.
Both Lancers in FSN and Fate/Zero had lousy Masters.
Both Berserkers in those HGWs had Masters who were no good as well (and Arcueid is gimped by her worthless Master in F/E).
The unplayable Archer in Fate/Extra (Robin Hood) fights more like an Assassin, but his Master inisists on treating things like a proper duel.
Both Riders in FSN and F/E are screwed over by the worthlessness of their respective Shinji's (no matter the universe, seaweed head is an overconfident punk).
FSN Caster's first Master was a jerk. She lucked out when Kuzuki found her.
Do I have to mention the Sabers? Arturia was sort of lucky in Zero because Kiritsugu, for all his faults and lousy personality, is still highly competent and skilled, but every other known Saber was out SOL. Even in the 3rd War, those two Edeflet Sisters summoned a Saber each by exploiting their clan's special magecraft (Ore Scales makes it so that both sisters are treated their clan's heir/representative so the Grail regarded both sisters as one person and gave them two versions of the same Servant), but they ended up fighting each other.
Actually Both Lancers had excellent masters, Bazett would have been the perfect compliment for Cu Cullen, and El Molai was also a good choice for Diarmuid, It's just both masters were screwed. Bazett was nearly murdered by Kotomine, and Diarmuid's cursed face paired with Solia's lack of experience caused his failure.
Ilya was the perfect master, she was custom modified to handle all of Heracles' mana needs and if it wasn't for The Worf Effect she would have won HF5. And Lancelot was also a tremendously powerful Berserker, if he left Arondight sheathed he would have won as well.
And even with Shinji's as their masters, the two fem-riders were also abnormally powerful. If Traveler among the stars meant a damn in Fate/Extra El Draco'd never lose. And Medusa's Cybele would more or less EASY MODO her through the entire tournament(But she couldn't since Shinji had an E in mana, like all his other stats as a non-magus, he'd be a statue in seconds).
Medea had the advantage of being a Sorceress from the Age of Gods, which meant, even with all their ranks of Magic Resistance, IF SHE SO CHOSE she could easily eradicate ANYONE with her anti-army spells at 1/10th the casting speed since her rank in High speed divine words means she can cast rank A+ ritual spells as a single action(aka, without incantation).
I specifically mentioned that Cu got cheated out of what was one of, if not the best, canon Masters ever (Bazett). When I say he got screwed over in terms of his Master, I meant Kotomine as his Master, not Bazett. As you say, Bazett and Lancer would have steamrolled a lot of other duos in the 5th HGW. Unfortunately, he didn't get to stay with Bazett, hence he got screwed over.
Diramuid got screwed over from the start. His Master summons Diarmuid as a back-up since since Waver stole the reagent of the Servant he really wanted (already bad impressions)... but apparently Kayneth never bothered to look up the man's legend? Either he never bothered to look up Diramuid's legend (which makes him horribly incompetent by default), or he looked it up and didn't think to take precautions against his own fiancee being affected (which still makes him horribly incompetent).
In Kayneth's defense, he is a very strong Magus (he could have potentially beaten any of the other Masters one-on-one save Kiritsugu obviously, and maybe Kotomine; depends on how the Black Keys would react with his Mercury Shield) and Diramuid also shares in some of the blame (Diramuid of all people should have known better than to show his face in front of his Master's woman given how his life ended; the flashback-dream in Fate/Zero fails to reveal how that girl who fell for him because of his beauty mark had a witch use magic to force him to fall in love with her; that's how insane his cursed spot makes women).
Illya was the perfect Master... in theory. Aside from her physical frailty (always an issue with Masters; especially since Berserkers become helpless without prana as they require too much to have any appreciable Independent Action), she was literally tailor-made for controlling Berserker/Heracles, but that meant nothing due to her own immaturity as both a combatant and a leader.
What I mean is Berserkers can't think for themselves, so on top of controlling them the Master has to have a mind for strategy or their effectiveness is diminished. Illya just threw Herc at enemies and expected him to bash them with impunity, even when she was outnumbered. If Archer had felt so inclined, he would have mercked her while Saber was keeping Herc busy. She has no sense of strategy.
It doesn't help that Illya had more issues than the New York Times, which led to her making even more poor decisions (like how she spared Shirou and the gang the first time). She actually could have let Herc out of Mad Enhancement, which would have made him more skilled and intelligent, but she kept him locked in it out of spite because controlling such a powerful Servant hurts her. Ultimately, she didn't even care about winning the HGW, which makes it worse. As such, despite being the best Master for Herc physically, she's actually a lousy Master mentally.
As for Worf Effect, I think you've misused the term. The Worf Effect is when someone supposedly badass gets continuously pwned to make the next big threat look badass. That wasn't the case. Both Gilgamesh and Dark Sakura/The Shadow were legitimately more powerful than Herc or were bad matches for him or both (Gil with his chains that are specifically made for enemies with divine blood, and the Shadow is anti-Servant in general and anti-melee specifically).
As for Lancelot, nothing you mentioned changes the fact that he lost because Kariya was too weak to keep supplying him with prana (and couldn't control him whenever Saber was involved).
Also, Saber was winning their last fight (she disarmed him despite his use of submachine guns as his NP) until he barely caught Excalibur barehanded despite Invisible Air and she realized he was someone she knew (catching Exclaibur despite its invisibility meant he knew its exact measurements). She demanded to know who he was, he revealed his identity as Lancelot, and Saber started losing the will to fight and started getting her ass kicked. He was going to kill her because Arondight is especially effective against dragons and those with dragon-blood (like Saber), but Kariya ran out of power and Lancelot became paralyzed with no prana to support him. He lost because his Master was no-good.
Except Traveler Among the Stars didn't mean squat in Fate/Extra (nor did the luck stat) and even if it did you exagerrate it's value (it makes the impossile something she can pull off but only in limited circumstances and it doesn't guarantee victory in a fight), which meant Piratits was stuck with a little kid who thought this was just a game with no real consequences. In other words, a worthless Master. If Shinji could spam healing items like the MC, that fight would have been a lot harder.
And you just mentioned how Rider/Medusa couldn't use Cybele because of Shinji, which just proves my point.
As for Medea soloing anyone IF SHE SO CHOSE... are you really saying she chose to fight like she was at a constant disadvantage? She couldn't eradicate anyone because that's beyond her. She had plenty of power from draining large amounts of people in the city so prana for her big spells was not an issue, and she was obsessive about winning and staying with Kuzuki, so motivation was also not an issue. Ergo, the only logical reason she didn't crush everyone else must be because she knew it'd be futile with their Magic Resistence involved.
Nasu himself says even if she could summon her dragon she'd be mid-tier at best. Granted, he also said she'd steamroll Ciel, one of the stronger Tsukihime heroes, but then, so would most Servants. Lancer/Culhain can kill Arcuied if its day and he nails her with Gae Bolg unless her luck saves her (this is from Nasu's own description of Gae Bolg).
Caster lucked out when she met Kuzuki, because he was badass enough that he could fight on the frontlines for her as long as she boosted his stats to Servant levels, but she was definitely unlucky with he first Master who actually used a Command Spell to make her weaker than him beause he was jealous of a woman being a better magus than him. Talk about an idiot!
cd_young said: To be really honest, We never got to see Medea do anything aside from being rickrolled by sword spam from both archers.
And Arc has EX luck.
I never said Arc's Luck wouldn't save her, only that it is the only thing that can save her from Gae bolg during the day (again, from Nasu's own description of Gae Bolg). She probably would luck out and then tear Lancer's head off. She's one of the very few Tsukihime characters who can casually crush a Servant though, unless you include guys from all the extra material like some of the other haxxed DAAs (again, as Nasu himself states).
Agreed! Reika looking over her as she sleeps is so damn cute it almost makes you forget she spent a good chunk of the chapter carving people up!
Only if said middleman is alive when you summon. Like Shirou in F/SN, the desire to survive can act as a catalyst to summon a Servant if you are near the required magical summoning circle. That happened with the wolf familiar and Reika.
It will act as if you summoned without an catalyst, in which case your own personality is taken into consideration and you are given a Servant who matches said personality (like serial killer Uryuu summoning Fate/Zero Caster, another evil murderer like himself).
In Fate/Strange Fake, the guy's wolf familiar activated the summoning with it's desire to live, so it got Enkidu, the closest match for it's personality (since he can talk to all beasts of the wild).
Here, Reika's will to live acted as a catalyst along with Jack's knives, so although Sagara was the actual Master, loli-Jack is a better fit, personality-wise, for Reika and wants Reika to be her Master.
It doesn't get mentioned much but Servants can refuse the summoning if they don't want to participate in the Holy Grail War. Loli-Jack probably didn't like what she sensed from the guy summoning her, so she ignored the summons even though he had her knives, but when she sensed Reika's desire to live through the summoning circle she realized she had found a potential Master who suits her own personality.
OmniGman said:
Agreed! Reika looking over her as she sleeps is so damn cute it almost makes you forget she spent a good chunk of the chapter carving people up!
Only if said middleman is alive when you summon. Like Shirou in F/SN, the desire to survive can act as a catalyst to summon a Servant if you are near the required magical summoning circle. That happened with the wolf familiar and Reika.
It will act as if you summoned without an catalyst, in which case your own personality is taken into consideration and you are given a Servant who matches said personality (like serial killer Uryuu summoning Fate/Zero Caster, another evil murderer like himself).
In Fate/Strange Fake, the guy's wolf familiar activated the summoning with it's desire to live, so it got Enkidu, the closest match for it's personality (since he can talk to all beasts of the wild).
Here, Reika's will to live acted as a catalyst along with Jack's knives, so although Sagara was the actual Master, loli-Jack is a better fit, personality-wise, for Reika and wants Reika to be her Master.
It doesn't get mentioned much but Servants can refuse the summoning if they don't want to participate in the Holy Grail War. Loli-Jack probably didn't like what she sensed from the guy summoning her, so she ignored the summons even though he had her knives, but when she sensed Reika's desire to live through the summoning circle she realized she had found a potential Master who suits her own personality.
I'd like to note that I'm pretty sure he was reading his murdering instructions from Prelati''s spellbook, a strong catalyst to summon that Caster.