Oi, back in Warspite's day, that 23/24 knot speed of hers basically made her a Ferrari in the eyes of fleet admirals of the time.
Well not quite, most of battleships by her commissioning where in the 20 to 21 knot range, so her speed was modest and still notably below ships considered genuinely fast like cruisers, battle or otherwise of the same vintage which were 28+ at least.
Well not quite, most of battleships by her commissioning where in the 20 to 21 knot range, so her speed was modest and still notably below ships considered genuinely fast like cruisers, battle or otherwise of the same vintage which were 28+ at least.
But having the armor to back up that 24 knots and the 15 inch guns to leave some giant holes in whatever they find was the key. The battlecruisers of the day had almost paper thin armor (relative to some cruisers even) and up to that point, the largest ones were Kongo and Tiger.
But having the armor to back up that 24 knots and the 15 inch guns to leave some giant holes in whatever they find was the key. The battlecruisers of the day had almost paper thin armor (relative to some cruisers even) and up to that point, the largest ones were Kongo and Tiger.
Wouldn't "fast for something so heavy" make it more like a Hummer than a Ferrari, though?
But having the armor to back up that 24 knots and the 15 inch guns to leave some giant holes in whatever they find was the key.
The original quote said nothing about armor or guns, it merely mentioned speed and tended to insinuate she was exceptionally fast for the time, which she was not. While I noted most battleships were 20 or 21 the actual reality was that by 1915-16 when the QEs were commissioning speed was ticking up in most navies the Fuso did 23, the last German class to actually finish the Bayern did a solid 22, the next planned French class before the start of the war shit canned basically all naval construction was aiming for 23 as well, only the US stuck with a slower speed for it's new ships of that period focusing more on guns and protection.
So actually it's speed advantage against most of it's contemporary designs was 1 to 2 knots which is not appreciable or really exploitable in most circumstances. Don't get me wrong the QE was a good design for the time with a nice blend of characteristics, but it was only a a bit faster then older ships and barely any faster at all against most similiar vintage 1916 era designs. It was not really "fast" in a more general sense of the wider fleet, only in the narrower sense of compared to other battleships or really more like compared to other older battleships.
The battlecruisers of the day had almost paper thin armor (relative to some cruisers even) and up to that point, the largest ones were Kongo and Tiger.
No the terribly designed British battlecruisers had paper thin armor, but the Germans weren't as stupid as the British. Their thinnest protected BC had basically full inch more armor then the best British design and the last classes into service had smaller (area wise), but battleship thickness belts. The last two classes had full on 12 inch belts over the vitals which were straight up battleship level for that time, they were honestly close to "fast battleships" in practice and it showed when they ass blasted their British equivalents at Jutland while absorbing more capital scale shells and surviving then basically any modern capital ship in history.
When it came to Battlecruisers the Germans just had the better philosophy and maybe the better concept in general "The first job of a ship is to stay afloat" at the end of the day slightly larger guns have rarely won battles, but badly protected and poorly built ships have certainly cost plenty of them.
These Kancolle pictures seriously trigger something in Warship fanatics. I think we have at least 10 kancolle posts on here with humongous debates between people.
These Kancolle pictures seriously trigger something in Warship fanatics. I think we have at least 10 kancolle posts on here with humongous debates between people.
As long as they keep it civil. If it devolves to nationalistic dicwaving or being an asshole then im out
No the terribly designed British battlecruisers had paper thin armor, but the Germans weren't as stupid as the British. Their thinnest protected BC had basically full inch more armor then the best British design and the last classes into service had smaller (area wise), but battleship thickness belts. The last two classes had full on 12 inch belts over the vitals which were straight up battleship level for that time, they were honestly close to "fast battleships" in practice and it showed when they ass blasted their British equivalents at Jutland while absorbing more capital scale shells and surviving then basically any modern capital ship in history.
When it came to Battlecruisers the Germans just had the better philosophy and maybe the better concept in general "The first job of a ship is to stay afloat" at the end of the day slightly larger guns have rarely won battles, but badly protected and poorly built ships have certainly cost plenty of them.
Just to expand and correct a few points:
The battlecruiser concept arose in response to developments around the end of the 19th century, coalescing into the French Jeune Ecole doctrine, specifically designed to counteract British naval superiority. This eschewed the usual conventions of line battle (big ships duking it out) in favour of swarming opponents with small-but-powerfully-armed boats, and strangling maritime trade with long-range cruisers.
The first half of this concept was quickly rendered obsolete by advances in technology, namely quick-firing artillery. Incidentally, it would be the combination of quick-firing artillery with a relatively small hull that would produce what we now call destroyers (originally termed torpedo boat destroyers).
The second half still posed a potential threat to shipping; cruisers (in particular the armored types) could pretty much outgun anything fast enough to catch them, and outrun anything that could outgun them. First Lord Jackie Fisher, who revolutionized naval construction by introducing the dreadnought, proposed a solution in the form of the battlecruiser: this overmatched cruisers in terms of armament and thanks to super-powerful machinery, was just as fast as its prey.
The Germans responded by ceasing construction of armoured cruisers and building their own battlecruisers. Unlike the British ships, these were more along the lines of scaled-down battleships. However, they were never used for the original concept of protecting trade against other cruisers. This is problematic because battlecruisers cost as much as battleships to build; every single one that was built meant one less battleship and the Germans could not match British production overall.
When World War I came around, the battlecruiser concept seemed vindicated when the Royal Navy annihilated a German cruiser squadron at the Battle of Falkland Islands, and came out with a victory in the Battle of Dogger Bank, which saw the German battlecruiser Seydlitz almost destroyed by a lucky hit. In those cases, the Brits could exercise their superior numbers effectively against their intended targets. These few successes encouraged them to take more risks with their ships, which needed to earn their keep.
This completely changed at the Battle of Jutland, where a British battlecruiser squadron scouting for German ships found themselves in range of the German High Seas Fleet. They ended up losing three battlecruisers to magazine explosions as a result of leaving the magazine doors open to speed up loading, which made it possible for a single hit on a turret to connect with the magazine and blow up the entire ship. The Germans, who nearly experienced this at Dogger Bank, avoided this by ensuring that the turret remained disconnected from the magazine at all times during the reloading process. The British flagship Lion, which took quite a pounding, would be saved from this by a mortally-wounded Royal Marine, who ordered the magazine to be closed and flooded when his turret was hit (he got a VC for his efforts). Brits fired more shots than the Germans, but scored nearly the exact same number of hits; poor gunnery, along with wonky ammunition that either failed to penetrate or explode properly, helped keep German ships afloat.
So to conclude:
The British battlecruiser concept was workable... so long as it was only applied to the circumstances for which it was designed. In practice, this was not feasible, and the Brits made some very poor, overconfident decisions.
The German battlecruiser concept was more technically sound, and they learned their lessons well. However, it cannot be understated that the Germans had no use at all for the type, and that Brits screwed up badly at Jutland.
Addendum:
In the end, the battlecruiser concept was quickly invalidated by advances in technology. Reducing armour was necessary because early steam turbines were not very efficient and needed a ridiculous number of boilers to achieve high power ratings; weight had to be saved somewhere. As time went on, turbines became more efficient, and the savings in weight could be put into increased armour and armament. Warspite and her sister ships were the first manifestation of this greater efficiency.
Post-addendum:
Wow, that went on longer than I anticipated.
Updated
Whoa...
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