This is exactly what needed to happen. Genderbending when it just "happens" is so annoying.
Kama is still male in Fate and not gender-bent. Nothing just "happened" as you put it, he's using the host body of Sakura. Kind of similar to how Waver is also a host body for a servant. Pseudo-Servants have been a thing for a long time and it's a consistent narrative in Fate, especially for higher beings like Kama needing a host.
Kama is still male in Fate and not gender-bent. Nothing just "happened" as you put it, he's using the host body of Sakura. Kind of similar to how Waver is also a host body for a servant. Pseudo-Servants have been a thing for a long time and it's a consistent narrative in Fate, especially for higher beings like Kama needing a host.
On top of that Mara, who is also inhabiting Sakura is a female demon.
I think he ultimately means it is the creators' decision to randomly "genderswap" male characters just for marketing purposes.
It's not about the lore explanation, it's about the real world writer's decision they want to associate another male mythological figure's name with a female design while still claiming the mythological is the same person as per his source material.
Otherwise, why would they even pick Sakura? Sakura certainly wasn't in need of more spotlight. Or why was Quetzalcoatl given a female vessel? Or Ganesha? Why is it that out of the currently 7 divine Pseudo-Servants, none are male?
It's not about the lore, it's about baiting whales.
I think he ultimately means it is the creators' decision to randomly "genderswap" male characters just for marketing purposes.
It's not about the lore explanation, it's about the real world writer's decision they want to associate another male mythological figure's name with a female design while still claiming the mythological is the same person as per his source material.
Otherwise, why would they even pick Sakura? Sakura certainly wasn't in need of more spotlight. Or why was Quetzalcoatl given a female vessel? Or Ganesha? Why is it that out of the currently 7 divine Pseudo-Servants, none are male?
It's not about the lore, it's about baiting whales.
It's genuinely not a big deal, people just have to complain about something. People have been complaining about this since the first Fate Eroge came out in 2004 (Stay/Night), because the franchise has a core focus on a male audience. It's almost like not everything is made for everyone. I don't go and complain about things with lots of male character focused fan-service that's banking on selling to women, that'd be silly if I did that.
Also people can ignore the lore reasons if they want and be cynical but that's their own choice and bias, I think that just makes them spiteful. It's also hypocritical in my opinion, the most popular servants recently are male servants in the new JP banner, that are all VERY husbando and some that are even shirtless. I know women that have been fangirling about how hot they are, some even getting their new husbandos to NP5. I think it's great personally, I just don't like being shamed for liking the female characters.
I think it's ridiculous and hypocritical when hot guys get added and that's fine, but if I say I like hot female servants I'm suddenly morally bankrupt. Every product is made to sell to someone, just because someone points out to me that what I enjoy is being made to sell to people like me doesn't make them better than me. It doesn't make what I like bad. It's just weird how much people online try to invalidate each other and act superior. Like enjoy this lovely fan-art, but don't bash me for enjoying the in game version of the character please.
Issue is NOT "oh it's appealing to this sex and therefore it's offensive", it's that it's not giving respect to the source mythology and history. In a series centered around mythology and history.
I've made this point a gazillionth time and people still misunderstands me, that my issue is based upon sexism. In the most simplest term I can say "I don't care about gender politics, I care about accuracy".
Game Kama is male, inserted into female body. That's the lore. Good. But now go to your casual FGO fan and ask what gender Kama is in Hindu mythology, how many do you think would accurately answer that Kama is male? I bet not half of them would.
Same thing goes about FF genderswapping Shiva, and he's one of the biggest Hindu gods there is. Yet I've seen tons of people going on Hindu documentaries on Youtube and goes "lololol Shiva's supposed to be a woman this documentary is so dumb".
And yet, I find FF more forgivable. Why? Because it's not centered around real mythology and history, because all it's names are meant to be misrepresented. Sephiroth isn't a tree, Bahamut isn't a fish, and Gilgamesh isn't Gilgamesh. Fate however, has the summoning of the actual mythological/historical figures be the backbone of its entire franchise, therefore it's not justifiable.
It's about intentionally miscommunicating what these figures represent at their core, all because it makes for some easy bucks. Or sure, even the most casual fans won't be so dumb as to think real life Attila is female and half naked and talks about good civilization and whatever, but what do you think they can tell me if I ask them what the actual Attila did? Or what the actual Minamoto no Yorimitsu did? Or heck, even King Arthur?
Again, the issue isn't "it doesn't appeal to woman therefore it's morally corrupt", it's "if this character is depicted in Fate is male, as he originally is, his significance in the Fate lore would have been perfectly the same, so what's the point of genderswapping if not just to lure the whales who only care about waifuism?"
If you like the female version of these characters but do know what their real life counterparts are like, good for you, I appreciate your efforts towards education. But if that's not the case and the only thing you care about is the waifuism/husbandoism, that's the thing I take issue with.
And I think it's doubly hypocritical for you to immediately put misguided arguments into someone else's mouths and immediately jump onto things about "you just wanna invalidate other people" when I said no such thing. I tried to be as tone-neutral as I could in the last post, you were the one who assumed you spotted aggression therefore you must use your own aggression otherwise you'd lose in this non-existent battle.
azurelorochi said: that my issue is based upon sexism. In the most simplest term I can say "I don't care about gender politics, I care about accuracy".
You say you don't care about gender poltics, and yet you're primary complaint is blatantly gender politics. If you can't even understand that simple dichotomy I will not accept any of your arguments.
azurelorochi said:
Game Kama is male, inserted into female body. That's the lore. Good. But now go to your casual FGO fan and ask what gender Kama is in Hindu mythology, how many do you think would accurately answer that Kama is male? I bet not half of them would.
You are seriously selling people being able to think short if you believe people won't actually FUCKING LOOK THINGS THAT INTEREST THEM UP AND JUST TAKE THEM AT FACE VALUE. I mean fucking come on.
You say you don't care about gender poltics, and yet you're primary complaint is blatantly gender politics. If you can't even understand that simple dichotomy I will not accept any of your arguments.
Look, let me take the gender politics out of the example so you'd understand.
- Fate wants to put in Zeus into the game. - Fate puts Zeus into the game as a talking coffee mug to say, appeal to Starbucks' customers because Starbucks customers are known to be willing to pay extra for some ludicrous limited-edition promotions. - I take issue to said misrepresentation of Zeus because it's dumb and not done for creative purposes but business purposes and is disrespectful to what Zeus is supposed to represent.
Understood now? I can't make this any simpler.
Oh and before you jump on me saying "what's wrong with making business decisions over creative decisions?" Then I can point to EA and its loot box practices and you'd understand.
Also before you say "Zeus is a fictional man in the sky people stopped worshipping for 2000 years ago", I'll point out that Kama and Ganesha are still worshipped today.
Look, let me take the gender politics out of the example so you'd understand.
- Fate wants to put in Zeus into the game. - Fate puts Zeus into the game as a talking coffee mug to say, appeal to Starbucks' customers because Starbucks customers are known to be willing to pay extra for some ludicrous limited-edition promotions. - I take issue to said misrepresentation of Zeus because it's dumb and not done for creative purposes but business purposes and is disrespectful to what Zeus is supposed to represent.
Understood now? I can't make this any simpler.
Oh and before you jump on me saying "what's wrong with making business decisions over creative decisions?" Then I can point to EA and its loot box practices and you'd understand.
Also before you say "Zeus is a fictional man in the sky people stopped worshipping for 2000 years ago", I'll point out that Kama and Ganesha are still worshipped today.
I am morbidly curious about what would happen if they, say, decided to make female Jesus a fate character.
I am morbidly curious about what would happen if they, say, decided to make female Jesus a fate character.
I'd stop playing F/GO and wouldn't buy, pirate, or read anything from Type Moon anymore. I already have issues with Leonard da Vinci and King Arthur being genderflipped, Jesus would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. And don't get me started on Méliès, Tesla, or Edison.
Look, let me take the gender politics out of the example so you'd understand.
- Fate wants to put in Zeus into the game. - Fate puts Zeus into the game as a talking coffee mug to say, appeal to Starbucks' customers because Starbucks customers are known to be willing to pay extra for some ludicrous limited-edition promotions. - I take issue to said misrepresentation of Zeus because it's dumb and not done for creative purposes but business purposes and is disrespectful to what Zeus is supposed to represent.
Understood now? I can't make this any simpler.
By simpler, you mean flat out idiotic, then yes you succeeded.
azurelorochi said: Oh and before you jump on me saying "what's wrong with making business decisions over creative decisions?" Then I can point to EA and its loot box practices and you'd understand.
Difference being F/GO was designed as a FREE Gatcha game, with random loot as it's core selling mechanic. Everything EA has put loot boxes into didn't need them, or want them and m[/b]ade fans furious by making 1/2 of a FULL PRICED GAME locked behind a paywall.
azurelorochi said: Also before you say "Zeus is a fictional man in the sky people stopped worshipping for 2000 years ago", I'll point out that Kama and Ganesha are still worshipped today.
And your point? What exactly is your point? So what id they're worshiped or of a dead religion, They're picked to accent the event or story plot as the developers see fit.
I'd stop playing F/GO and wouldn't buy, pirate, or read anything from Type Moon anymore. I already have issues with Leonard da Vinci and King Arthur being genderflipped, Jesus would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. And don't get me started on Méliès, Tesla, or Edison.
I think at this point we can safely say Type-Moon will be Type-Moon and just add random fluffs to servants because they feel like it. I heard in the next Lostbelt there will be mecha Greek servants? For me, I've sort of stopped caring too much. There will be servants from time to time that have an actual interesting reason as to why they are so, but most of the time I just ignore it and enjoy the art and voice acting, because in the end this is what this game is, a mobile servant collecting game. It's a bit silly to want them to stay historically accurate when the first thing that came out of them was a female king Arthur.
I think at this point we can safely say Type-Moon will be Type-Moon and just add random fluffs to servants because they feel like it. I heard in the next Lostbelt there will be mecha Greek servants? For me, I've sort of stopped caring too much. There will be servants from time to time that have an actual interesting reason as to why they are so, but most of the time I just ignore it and enjoy the art and voice acting, because in the end this is what this game is, a mobile servant collecting game. It's a bit silly to want them to stay historically accurate when the first thing that came out of them was a female king Arthur.
well the point of the lostbelts are timelines Gaia erased because for some reason or another humanity ceased to exist in enough of a fashion that she judged that that world was meaningless. The Yaga were demi-beasts, Scathcah-Skadi's world had no adults, and the Chinese world was full of basically farm animals with literally no agency to grow. if the Greek lostbelt is full of automatons that means humanity has again lost it's ability to grow and change and need to be erased.
By simpler, you mean flat out idiotic, then yes you succeeded.
And that is your problem. When I explain it in a less simple way, you misinterpret my argument, either deliberately or not, to be able to draw the conclusion of "you disagree with me, therefore you're the idiot".
But when I dumb down the example to make my point obvious, you jump and then call it idiotic anyway. I state my argument isn't based on gender politics, you yell "WHAT ARE YOU SAYING YOUR ENTIRE DEAL IS BASED UPON GENDER POLITICS YOU SEXIST TWAT" but when I point out that it does not, calling my example stupid is the only thing you have left.
It's like you don't have a point to present of your own, you just want to call people who disagree idiots because that's the only way you can walk away from this conversation a "winner". Grow up.
Difference being F/GO was designed as a FREE Gatcha game, with random loot as it's core selling mechanic. Everything EA has put loot boxes into didn't need them, or want them and m[/b]ade fans furious by making 1/2 of a FULL PRICED GAMElocked behind a paywall.
Oh fucking please. FGO is definitely up there as the most manipulative current gacha game where people dumped hundreds of thousands of yen into getting their waifus.
And again, Mister Juice's point was that male Servants can also appeal to other people, so again by keeping the Servants the gender they originally are supposed to be, it's not like you completely derive them of any marketability. And AGAIN by keeping the Servants male IT'S NOT LIKE THEIR ROLE IN THE LORE WOULD CHANGE so genderswapping is a shallow and ultimately pointless marketing tactic.
And it's not limited to genderswapping, I'm equally pissed at characters like Scathach Skadi and Arjuna Alter, exactly because they made absolutely zero sense even lore-wise(Scathach isn't even Norse and Arjuna Alter goes against the entire point of Bhagavad Gita). They too are just cheap marketing tactics to goad waifufags/husbandofags to roll for the character "they already know and love".
And your point? What exactly is your point? So what id they're worshiped or of a dead religion, They're picked to accent the event or story plot as the developers see fit.
My point was to godgun who was claiming "why should we even care if the characters are misrepresented". I was simply expecting him to follow up with "gods are fictional and personally doesn't mean jack to me. So again, who cares".
If you saw the point wasn't aiming for you, maybe it would've been smarter to leave it alone than be triggered by everything?
I think at this point we can safely say Type-Moon will be Type-Moon and just add random fluffs to servants because they feel like it. I heard in the next Lostbelt there will be mecha Greek servants? For me, I've sort of stopped caring too much. There will be servants from time to time that have an actual interesting reason as to why they are so, but most of the time I just ignore it and enjoy the art and voice acting, because in the end this is what this game is, a mobile servant collecting game. It's a bit silly to want them to stay historically accurate when the first thing that came out of them was a female king Arthur.
I frankly wouldn't mind it that much if Type-Moon followed his own lore, rather than going "Arthur was actually a grill, naniiiii?!" every damn time. At this point, it feels like they're making whatever the fuck they want, draw characters at random, and then afterward go "oh, his skin is brown, let's make him African, there's probably some lore here we can use".
Same thing goes about FF genderswapping Shiva, and he's one of the biggest Hindu gods there is. Yet I've seen tons of people going on Hindu documentaries on Youtube and goes "lololol Shiva's supposed to be a woman this documentary is so dumb".
Old post, but I think FF Shiva is in fact meant to be named after the English word "shiver".
