I'm pleased to see that Zounose can make comics that aren't grimdark bullshit, and who yet manage to be interesting and somehow mature. I really like his art style.
Thanks to whoever translated it. Probably Lavender. Thanks Lavender.
I'm pleased to see that Zounose can make comics that aren't grimdark bullshit, and who yet manage to be interesting and somehow mature. I really like his art style.
Thanks to whoever translated it. Probably Lavender. Thanks Lavender.
Nah, most of Zounose's stuff isn't really "grimdark"
It's certainly on the harder to stomach side a lot of the time, but there's a definite method and purpose to it. I may not always feel cheery after reading something of his, but he does a good enough job selling the way his Gensokyo works that I can usually appreciate it.
Grimdark stuff is usually depressing and miserable just for the sake of being depressing and miserable, with no real value in it beyond being dark and edgy.
I'd say few of his dark works are truly good. He does a poor job of keeping it within 'too much' and 'not enough' in most of them.
The cannibalism gets you the first time, but once you're used to that it becomes obvious that he lays it on too thick. Oooooo monsters eat ppl, ppl taste good, scary scary.
I'd say few of his dark works are truly good. He does a poor job of keeping it within 'too much' and 'not enough' in most of them.
The cannibalism gets you the first time, but once you're used to that it becomes obvious that he lays it on too thick. Oooooo monsters eat ppl, ppl taste good, scary scary.
Kind of this. People probably like this guy's works, but I just don't get his writing philosophy. It's like he's trying to do a serious drama with dark fantasy elements but can't bring himself to drag Touhou out of its cheery kitchen sink so it ends up coming off as genre blind.
If he actually had an alternate canon setting to work in he could really excel in writing a dark fantasy Touhou.
At this point I think is work can best be describe as grimn comedy. Oh yes some of the stuff he brought out is dark, and when its dark, it gets very dark, but yet there is still an underlining comdey behind that. The Can story and vote to eat a guy story are such example.
*Gensoukyou, but the youkai are actually youkai, with all that entails.*
That's what he writes, it really is that simple.
What do that mean by that?
Hatate is shown here to be just a plain, headstrong girl in this story. She even betrays her Tengu allies. That's kind of going against Japanese folklore isn't it? I'd hardly consider the canned meat story to have anything to do with it either, and the story about Yuuka taking over Gensoukyou is just silly. None of those strike me as having deep Japanese folklore.
Hatate is shown here to be just a plain, headstrong girl in this story. She even betrays her Tengu allies. That's kind of going against Japanese folklore isn't it? I'd hardly consider the canned meat story to have anything to do with it either, and the story about Yuuka taking over Gensoukyou is just silly. None of those strike me as having deep Japanese folklore.
"Youkai are actually youkai" as in their base desire, consumption of human meat, is retained. They need and will eat human to continue being Youkai because that's just in their nature, even one of the Forbidden Scrollery or was it Wild & Horned Hermit also touched upon this topic, with Yukari transporting human from outside world to supply the youkai with meat because eating any of the human village is greatly frowned upon.
Yet many stubborn people decided to just ignore that entirely as to them, "Touhou is all pink and rainbow with cute little girls throwing non-lethal magic at each other for fun".
"Youkai are actually youkai" as in their base desire, consumption of human meat, is retained.
Much as I like his work, I have to say that this statement is just plain false. While certainly there are mentions of a darker underside of Gensokyo, the whole "consuming human" thing is something applicable only to a very few of them. Zounose kinda cranked that up over eleven.
Much as I like his work, I have to say that this statement is just plain false. While certainly there are mentions of a darker underside of Gensokyo, the whole "consuming human" thing is something applicable only to a very few of them. Zounose kinda cranked that up over eleven.
very few of the main cast only, mind you. Like, what we're seeing from the main cast is probably just the tip of the iceberg of what Gensokyo actually has in store if Japanese folklores are anything to go by.
Do remember that almost every youkai in existence, once again from Japanese folklores' portrayal, will and must eat human or else they cease to be one and ceased from existence altogether, a fact also supported by official manga. Just because they look like cute little girls now doens't mean that 'youkai' flair is thrown out the window or flushed down the shitter.
Sure, Zounose may be really cranking up that cannibalism and absurd scale, but that's why all of us here love his works for. B
But the fact that many people decided to just handwave/ignore or flat out refuse this as simply the darker underlying tone of the verse because it doesn't align with their headcanon is just ridiculous
very few of the main cast only, mind you. Like, what we're seeing from the main cast is probably just the tip of the iceberg of what Gensokyo actually has in store if Japanese folklores are anything to go by.
Do remember that almost every youkai in existence, once again from Japanese folklores' portrayal, will and must eat human or else they cease to be one and ceased from existence altogether, a fact also supported by official manga. Just because they look like cute little girls now doens't mean that 'youkai' flair is thrown out the window or flushed down the shitter.
Sure, Zounose may be really cranking up that cannbalism and absurd scale, but that's why all of us here love his works for. But the fact that many people decide to just ignore/handwave or flat out refuse to accept this as a reality when it has been supported by official manga is just ridiculous.
Well it would help if the "darker side" of Touhou wasn't exclusive to one or two side works that the majority of fans haven't read. It would also help if that information hadn't come long after the majority of fanon had already been established based on information given in the games. And I don't know where this "refusing to accept reality" nonsense is coming from, as if people are just actively dismissing canon, which is absolutely not true.
The only humanoid youkai in canon stated to eat humans are Rumia and the Scarlets. Eating humans never comes up for the rest of them, and it can generally be assumed that most of the human eating is done by the normal, wild Youkai, that are rarely seen. There's also no confirmation on how often Gensokyan youkai eat humans. They're not allowed to eat the village humans and it's unlikely that Yukari is collecting hundreds of outside world humans on her own just to feed hundreds of youkai on a daily basis.
What's more, not all youkai in Touhou are japanese, so the statement, "most youkai eat humans" applies even less to the humanoid youkai. According to Touhou, the main thing that keeps youkai alive is fear and faith, not specifically the flesh of humans. That's why Gensokyo exists, that's why the human village is off limits, because they serve as a constant source of fear and faith in gods and monsters in a pocket world separated from the faithless outside world.
If the majority of fanworks are focusing on the humanoid characters, the majority of which aren't ever shown or stated to consume humans, who just sit around having parties and participating in non-lethal magic battles, which exist specifically to allow youkai to torment humans without disrupting the natural order of Gensokyo, then yeah, unsurprisingly, there's not going to be a whole lot of dark themes. Which again, are barely present in canon as it is, so I dunno why you're so upset that more people aren't latching onto these barely existing themes.
Edit:
Sure, Zounose may be really cranking up that cannibalism and absurd scale, but that's why all of us here love his works for.
Actually most find his works incredibly divisive. I wouldn't say I love them, they're just an interesting darker take on things. Please don't speak for everybody.
According to Touhou, the main thing that keeps youkai alive is fear and faith, not specifically the flesh of humans. That's why Gensokyo exists, that's why the human village is off limits, because they serve as a constant source of fear and faith in gods and monsters in a pocket world separated from the faithless outside world.
And that's kinda the whole point here. Anything that isn't human in Gensokyo is kept alive by fear and faith, for youkai and gods/goddesses respectively. To maintain that fear in the human heart, Youkai eat human, just not from the village but is supplied by Yukari. They don't need to eat human to survive, but eating human is a way to sow fear in other human which is what keep them alive.
And to keep faith flowing, gods/goddesses bestow blessing and protection on human.
One prime example is the Moriya shrine's cable car in WaHH, the tengu and Kanako struck a deal under the table, the former cause a little disturbance to remind the human that the Mountain is their domain and sow fear in their heart, Kanako then appear to solve the problem to increase the human's faith in her, typical hero vs villain situation but it worked out wonderfully for both sides.
The only reason why we don't see much human consumption is because youkai wise, while the cast is diverse most of them have no need for human meat/no longer have a need for human meat/have other alternatives to human meat, but the fact remain that they are youkai and they will eat human if given the opportunity and permission.
Not all youkai in Gensokyo come from Japan, sure, but even among the foreign ones there are man-eater type, it's just she preferred drinking blood over dirtying herself at the table so there's that.
It's not that I am mad, far from it, I am simply finding it ridiculous when so many people are refusing to accept the in-verse reality just because they want to keep their own headcanon, even disregarding Words of GOd.
It was years ago that an argument about this same point was sparked, on this very site, the post back then was also one of Zounose's work, I believe.
And that's kinda the whole point here. Anything that isn't human in Gensokyo is kept alive by fear and faith, for youkai and gods/goddesses respectively. To maintain that fear in the human heart, Youkai eat human, just not from the village but is supplied by Yukari. They don't need to eat human to survive, but eating human is a way to sow fear in other human which is what keep them alive.
... Maybe I'm missing something here. But how in the hell is eating random outsider humans that the villagers have no connection to supposed to provide fear from the villagers? The villagers are not the ones going missing, they're not the ones vanishing into the night, their bones aren't gracing the lairs of youkai. The other example (WaHH) makes more sense. If you need fear/ faith, and you have supernatural powers that the people around you can't explain away, the easiest way to get the former is probably to just use the later.
And that's kinda the whole point here. Anything that isn't human in Gensokyo is kept alive by fear and faith, for youkai and gods/goddesses respectively. To maintain that fear in the human heart, Youkai eat human, just not from the village but is supplied by Yukari. They don't need to eat human to survive, but eating human is a way to sow fear in other human which is what keep them alive.
Garrus said:
... Maybe I'm missing something here. But how in the hell is eating random outsider humans that the villagers have no connection to supposed to provide fear from the villagers? The villagers are not the ones going missing, they're not the ones vanishing into the night, their bones aren't gracing the lairs of youkai. The other example (WaHH) makes more sense. If you need fear/ faith, and you have supernatural powers that the people around you can't explain away, the easiest way to get the former is probably to just use the later.
To clarify things, Yukari doesn't actually supply humans for youkai to eat, any humans that get eaten are people who are so detached from society, often extremely depressed and suicidal individuals who "get lost" and end up in Gensokyo. Yukari has no hand in this whatsoever, and realistically you're probably looking at maybe a dozen people a day. And any of those people that make it to the village or the Hakurei shrine either find safety in the village or are returned home by Reimu.
Fear is primarily generated by Incidents caused by youkai, as directly attacking the village would incur the wrath of every single major youkai in Gensokyo. Fear is also found in the fact that you're only safe in the village, leaving the village at all, especially after dark, makes you fair game. You only have to believe the youkai are dangerous for them to continue existing, and being confined to a single village that is surrounded on all sides by monsters is a good way to perpetuate the idea of constant danger.
DammitCarl said:
The only reason why we don't see much human consumption is because youkai wise, while the cast is diverse most of them have no need for human meat/no longer have a need for human meat/have other alternatives to human meat, but the fact remain that they are youkai and they will eat human if given the opportunity and permission.
That's literally what I already said.
It's not that I am mad, far from it, I am simply finding it ridiculous when so many people are refusing to accept the in-verse reality just because they want to keep their own headcanon, even disregarding Words of GOd.
Again, most people aren't disregarding anything, it just doesn't matter. Everyone knows some youkai eat humans, even before it was explicitly stated people generally assumed it probably happened, it just doesn't fucking matter like 95% of the time. It's rarely mentioned in canon, only ever as a passing detail, and never has any effect on whatever plot is currently being explored.
It's such a minor background detail, that it's almost never worth actually bringing up. Zounose and a few other artist/writers just happen to feature it more prominently in their personal Gensokyos than it normally is. And in Zounose's case, it's defintely way more overblown than anything in canon, an entire canned meat producing factory to supply the entirety of Gensokyo with a constant source of human meat is no more canon than saying no one in Touhou ever eats humans.
To clarify things, Yukari doesn't actually supply humans for youkai to eat, any humans that get eaten are people who are so detached from society, often extremely depressed and suicidal individuals who "get lost" and end up in Gensokyo. Yukari has no hand in this whatsoever, and realistically you're probably looking at maybe a dozen people a day. And any of those people that make it to the village or the Hakurei shrine either find safety in the village or are returned home by Reimu.
Not necessarily. Her profile in PCB and a chapter in WaHH stated that Yukari is responsible for the humans being spirited away into Gensokyo. These implied that it wasn't so much the humans accidentally stumbling into Gensokyo, as it was Yakumo Yukari allowing them to cross over the boundary.
Now whether she does this on a whim or is actively supplying Gensokyo's youkai with "supplies" (or at the very least, the SDM) is something one can make an argument for, but I'm really not cut out for that.
Yeah, Yukari is responsible for creating the system in which outsiders are spirited away into Gensokyo now and then, which certainly isn't done because of reasons such as wanting outsiders to become villagers (if she wanted to do this she would've made them show up in the village instead of basically some random place in Gensokyo) although if someone managed to reach the village or the Hakurei Shrine she's fine with that. While she doesn't personally gap them into Gensokyo as many fans believed, she's still the one that created the system that caused it to happen, as she has better things to do than being a personal delivery system for some youkai.
In the grand scheme of Touhou Doujins, explicit or not, Zounouse stuff isn't that grimdark in theme or story, things are just a lot less centered around those above the law in Gensokyo, and when it is it's usually a lot more light hearted than normal
... Maybe I'm missing something here. But how in the hell is eating random outsider humans that the villagers have no connection to supposed to provide fear from the villagers? The villagers are not the ones going missing, they're not the ones vanishing into the night, their bones aren't gracing the lairs of youkai. The other example (WaHH) makes more sense. If you need fear/ faith, and you have supernatural powers that the people around you can't explain away, the easiest way to get the former is probably to just use the later.
Knowing the Old Times, villagers [ those not raised in a strong ethical tradition ] were equally likely to volunteer strangers [ defined as the next village and beyond ].
