Arcueid is indeed Type Earth, the planet's defense against the fallen ancestors and dead apostoles, although the most weakest among the types is still the strongest among the characters at least in Melty blood, in this form Arcueid uses 100% of her power instead of the standar Arcueid who only uses her 30%
Arcueid only uses her whole power "borrowing" that form for some seconds. To be able to use it continuously, she has to regain the "hair that was taken from her". Also, Arcueid is not Type-Earth, she's Archetype-Earth, which is different. It's Archetype since Gaia had to use Type-Moon as a base, because it couldn't create a "king" (Type) on its own.
won't be a very long battle. If Arcueid is immortal, Ryougi KILLS her immortality! I agree -> The one who hits first will win, but I think Arcueid has a slight advance in Speed unless Shiki will get in Void-Mode and kills the distance or what the heck.
I think Ryougi is stronger than Nanaya/Tohno will ever become, so she will manage to kill her enemy if she´s got a chance. However, if Archetype hit her, I think Ryougis body would simply be ripped apart, if she is on the lucky side. I don't even think she would survive a clear hit from the normal Arcueid. Yeah, the MEoDP are awesome, but she is still a mere human, at least her body is (if you take her arm apart)
Lol, Ryougi at her strongest (third personality) "might" be able to fight defensively against a average servant and you guy's are questioning if she can fight against a 100% arcueid?? Seems like some people have hit their heads pretty bad...
Ryougi Shiki in the intro speech in MBAA against Arcueid and Archetype Earth, says the same thing. Even though i don't understand Japanese, is obviously implying she can't see her lines. 30% Arcueid can kill servants and Ryougi Shiki can't. And Arcueid can easily kill her with the 18 disection, it doesn't matter how fast Shiki is, there is no way she can avoid being chopped to pieces by an indefinite number of rays that come off in all directions, not even Gilgamesh can survive that. The battle would end before it begins
Shiki (female personality) most likely can't kill Arcueid (Archetype). However, Ryougi Shiki (true personality) most likely can It is said that Tohno Shiki managed to kill Arcueid even when the moon is rising after killing the very nature of her power http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Arcueid (I haven't obtained this ending myself, I don't like bad endings lol) I don't see how Ryougi Shiki can't kill her, after all, that gal is broken http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Ryougi_Shiki (and when I say broken, as in h4x) I think there was a topic in the Beast's Lair about her powers as well, you might want to check it out
In game, Ryougi can't see her lines. i.e., she's unkillable.
So many people here don't know how the Mystic Eyes work, it's sad. It's not instant hax. Users can only kill things that have a concept of death. Archetype Earth has none, so therefore she can't be killed by Ryougi. To do so would require an understanding of death that would fry Ryougi's brain, 3rd personality or not.
And Archetype Earth isn't a Type. That's why she's called ARCHETYPE, dammit. She's almost as powerful as a type, but Earth has no Type, so she doesn't qualify.
And obligatory lol powerlevels. I like Nanaya. Does that mean I ignore the fact that he's outclassed by so many other beings in the Nasuverse? No. Just because you like Ryougi doesn't mean she suddenly has a chance to beat one of the most powerful beings in the Nasuverse.
First hit wins? That seems almost impossible for shiki to get that chance. Considering Shiki is just a human, her natural athletic ability is limited. Even the mystic eyes of death perception gives her ability to take down anything, that's only takes place in close fighting. Just look at this picture from tsukihime comichttp://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af88/aganainotoki/hime.jpg
Close quarters mean nothing. Ryougi has lost before the battle has even begun, for the sole reason that she can't kill Archetype Earth with the Mystic eyes.
Remembering Arcueid vs Shiki battle in the game, stabbing the Earth's point weakens Arcueid. She will probably still be immortal, and Earth will eventually recover (probably), but it will be possible for Ryougi to defeat her. Now, sealing Arcueid so she won't be able to revive is another problem.
*sigh* so many noobs... Arc cant be defeated by Ryougi... cause she has no point of death...
if u kill the distance between 2 objects, their coordinates become the same, thus both'd get killed ( ohh wait...arc can die with having ryougi mixed up within her...snap) Nasuverse has laws, KnK movies f*cked some things that were stated before, those who really dont know much of the Nasuverse shouldnt even bother posting facts or nonsense. simply state who' u like to win, though bets are 99.99% in favor towards Arcueid ( with or without AE mode )
Did you create that account JUST to make this comment? Or even read what has been said? As Flannan said, Tohno Shiki can kill the "World," even while being limited by his body. Ryougi Shiki is not only better at perceiving the death of concepts, but her body is also better-suited to handling the Mystic Eyes without frying her brain. I'm not saying she'd win, but she's definitely not getting as much credit as she deserves - more like there'd be a double KO.
Nasuversepro said: *sigh* so many noobs... Arc cant be defeated by Ryougi... cause she has no point of death...
Well, there is one method that no-one seems to look into. The Earth itself... since her power derives from that, it's rather likely that Archetypes' and Type's concept of death lay with it's source. Meaning that the very thing that Ryougi can kill isn't before her, it's under her. And also keep in mind that this is only when she is an Archetype does Arc have no points or lines of death. If she is using anything less in power... she is quite killable as Tohno Shiki proved in there first meeting.
That said, striking the earth with the power of the root would be suicide. At best, it's self destructive... at worst, she outright kills the world, therefore kill herself, Arc, akasha, gaia and anything else on it at the time. I like Ryougi and all, but this battle would be difficult even for her.
James-Sarrowtail said: Well, there is one method that no-one seems to look into. The Earth itself... since her power derives from that, it's rather likely that Archetypes' and Type's concept of death lay with it's source. Meaning that the very thing that Ryougi can kill isn't before her, it's under her.
Remember Ciel's route? When Shiki got vampire powers (it was stated that he was on the same level as Ciel at that point, and we know that Ciel has better physical capabilities than Ryougi) and tried to stand against 70-80% Arcueid, he then proceded to dotstab the world, and what did he got? He got his chest pierced in less than a blink before he even realized it, his newly acquired vampire senses, eyesight and reflexes were completely powerless before the "real power" of Arcueid. No matter how hard Ryougi tries, even if she dotstabs the world in a similar manner as Tohno did, she is almost 100% sure to be ripped to shreds by Arc before she even realizes what happened. And don't forget that Arc is quite pissed at her for the fact that she killed her Shiki, so she will have no mercy towards her.
James-Sarrowtail said: And also keep in mind that this is only when she is an Archetype does Arc have no points or lines of death. If she is using anything less in power... she is quite killable as Tohno Shiki proved in there first meeting.
Ugh, where did you got that? Did you even read Tsukihime? It was stated by Arc herself that on the night she has "no time of death" (I can give you the relevant quotes if you want), she can't be killed by the MEoDP on the night at all, 30% or 100% it doesn't matter because even if she is using 30% of power, the other 70% will still be there (it just means that she won't use it for combat). She said it herself that the only reason why Shiki could see her lines on the night is because she used a lot of power to revive, she used 80% of her power, that left her with 20%, and of that 20% she was using 70% to control her impulses, so she had only 6% after her resurrection. Of course, her power increased overtime, but she never reached her full 100% until the end of the story. That's why as long as Arc has 100% of her power, it doesn't matter if she is using 70% to keep her bloodlust in check, she will be immune to the MEoDP as long as Shiki doesn't dotstabs the world. In MBAA the fight between Archetype Earth and Ryougi is shortly after the battle between Tohno and Ryougi on the grassy field, meaning that there was a full moon overhead, that's why Ryougi couldn't see her lines. Arc has lines on the day, 6%, 30% or 100% it won't matter, since it is both the moon and the earth what gives Arc power, she can't be a perfect life-form without the moon.
James-Sarrowtail said: That said, striking the earth with the power of the root would be suicide. At best, it's self destructive... at worst, she outright kills the world, therefore kill herself, Arc, akasha, gaia and anything else on it at the time.
No, there isn't any indication that this might happen and you know it, since Tohno didn't even killed the whole world (that's impossible), he temporarily killed Arc's connection with Gaia.
Ugh...enough with this. Have you READ the full story regarding MBAA? Archetype Earth is the TATARI vision created by Dust of Osiris. Being such an overly powerful entity, Gaea summoned Ryougi from her sleep as a counter guardian to defend Earth from Archetype. However, Archetype is merely a nightmare and not a true entity. Ryougi states in the conclusion that she cannot see any lines on her [Archetype]. In order to defeat her, she merely has to last until morning when the nightmare ends.
Ryougi's abilities allow her to see the lines of any entity connected to Akasha. However, Archetype is merely a nightmare created through the curse of TATARI and is connected to TATARI and not Akasha. As such, there are no lines for Ryougi to see. The extent of TATARI's reach, the entire area of Misaki, is within the Reality Marble of TATARI and is no longer directly connected to Akasha.
Summoned as a counter guardian, it is Ryougi's role to stop Archetype, the strongest entity summoned during this night. However, as a being not connected to Akasha, Archetype has no lines to cut, no point to stab. In order to give her weakness, the source of the TATARI would need to be severed. If this happened, the nightmare would automatically end and the illusion of Archetype would fade.
This has nothing to do with Tsukihime nor anything to do with Tohno. Tohno and Ryougi have similar abilities at first glance, but ultimately they have far different abilities and cannot really be compared.
shinmasaki said: Ugh...enough with this. Have you READ the full story regarding MBAA? Archetype Earth is the TATARI vision created by Dust of Osiris. Being such an overly powerful entity, Gaea summoned Ryougi from her sleep as a counter guardian to defend Earth from Archetype. However, Archetype is merely a nightmare and not a true entity. Ryougi states in the conclusion that she cannot see any lines on her [Archetype]. In order to defeat her, she merely has to last until morning when the nightmare ends.
*Facepalm* I really have no words, no words to express the level of "WHAT?!" that I had through reading your post. For God sake, it is me the one who should be asking you, did you even played MBAA? Did you carefully read through Ryougi's story path in MBAA, and everything the characters said? I would bet my right leg that you either read a really poorly translation or you can understand Japanese but didn't grasp the whole context. This is what AE truly said:
Archetype Earth: So it seems. The providence of the Air (Sky) and the providence of the Star (planet) are separate things, ours paths ones that will diverge one day and move apart. AE: And yet It cannot suffer even that? Apparently, It has deemed that if they are fated to conflict, it is all the same to conclude things here. AE: Yes, you need say no more. The target the Being that summoned you to eliminate is this vessel, the manifestation of lifespan (Life) most far-reaching on this planet. AE: But even that is of little meaning, for you, you came simply to bring death to that which does not die, did you not? Your actions are ones drenched with emotion, but I will not mock that.
Alaya figured that even though they're allies with Gaia now, it didn't make a difference to do things now if they're going to be enemies later. And so Alaya summoned Ryougi, not Gaia. Gaia was the one who summoned Arcueid. Therefore, this isn't Gaia or Alaya and Ryougi vs Dust of Osiris's shadows, but Alaya (Ryougi) vs Gaia (Arcueid). In fact, that's what it says on the original Japanese. Did the translations that you saw failed to communicate that? And by the way, this dialogue was translated by Arai, the creator of the fuyuki wiki (that is by far the best English TM site).
And, once again, the only reason why Ryougi couldn't see AE's lines is because on then night, under the moon, Arc is a perfect and eternal existence that doesn't carry a "concept of death", just like the other Ultimate Ones.
The text above is one of the unexpected but greatly appreciated results of having a comments section on Danbooru: Insightful debates. It really saves time in trying to research backstory when you can read it here.
Ryougi doesn't need a concept of death. She doesn't see death, but rather shes sees existence. As long as it is an entity in contact with Akasha, she can sever its existence. Once its existence is severed, it should no longer exist and it becomes an anomaly. This anomaly then gets erased by the Counter-Force. Any entity archived in Akasha, its existence can be ended.
With Tohno, he can force death upon any entity that has an Earthly based form of death. With Arc in Ciel's route and earlier on when he is travelling with her he cannot see her lines because it is night time when she the concept of death doesn't exist for her. Death is the keyword here. Existence is another thing entirely. At all times, an entity exists and Ryougi can sever that. It is not limited to day or night.
You cant grasp the story going on in MBAA merely from a single scenario. Playing through Sion's and Reis's routes, you learn how Dust is the future incarnation of Sion and how the TATARI exists again brought back by Dust. In Ryougi's route, you learn that she is summoned to this dream and its not until she confronts AE that she realizes exactly what she was summoned for. Further, you learn that Dust's goal is to end existence now as opposed to later because in the end, it all turns to dust.
Gaia summoned AE to stop Dust from ending everything while Alaya summoned Ryougi to stop AE as a counter-force. Regardless, this does not change the one-night time limit on the fight. The effects of TATARI last for the single night and when the threat of Dust is over, there will be no need for AE and thus, no need for Ryougi.
I apologize, I didn't mean to put in Gaia above. That was my mistake. I do also apologize for the horrible job of interpretting this when I first got the game. I had to replay through the scenarios and reacquiant myself with the specifics because I remembered something way wrong there. I was wrong, blatantly, so I accept that my explanation above was wrong, however to insult me for translations when you are merely using someone else's without doing them for yourself is quite offensive. I do however, think my interpretation of AE's lines are a little more accurate as it brings reference to Dust's actions.
AE: It may seem so. The direction of the Earth and the Sky are different. They separate and move away from one another with time. AE: That in itself is irritating. If they will oppose each other indefinitely, then bringing a conclusion now is meaningless. AE: Everything is so impatient. This all results because her predictions consider every possibility. Having lots of possibilities is alright, but isn't bringing everything to an end a mistake? AE: There's nothing you need to say. My vessel summoned you here to bring my death. I am the ultimate being of this planet. AE: However, that is meaningless as well. You were summoned to bring death to that which has no death, yes? Even if it is a mere emotional response, I can't help but laugh.
Also, AE is a concept. It took Ryougi a while to understand the concept of Fujino's abilities in order to see and destroy them. If she can survive long enough to comprehend AE, she will be able to destroy AE.
Ry: Here I come. I can kill anything that exists, even if it's a God.
*Sigh* Ok, I guess I have no choice. Here, see the information from side material and Nasu's interviews.
Nasu's interview
Kinoko: It's not quite so much the eyes, but how (R) Shiki perceives things that has a large effect on her powers. First, Mystic Eyes and brains work as a set. For example, Tohno Shiki from "Tsukihime" normally can't cut concepts like Shiki does, but that's because the specs of the Mystic's Eye's user's brain is different. Tohno Shiki isn't suited in the aspect of recognizing "concepts". (Ryougi) Shiki touched " " and became specialized in the visualization of events, while (Tohno) Shiki became submerged in death and became specialized in killing living things. By the way, Asagami Fujino's Mystic Eyes also work the same way. In her case, she can't twist things that she recognizes as not being twistable.
Same interview.
Interviewer goes on how about how amazing Shiki's eyes seem, given that she can cut space and concepts, and that it really feels like that "as long as it's alive, I can kill God" line isn't an exaggeration. But..
Kinoko: "As long as it's alive", however. The thing is, God isn't alive or dead so Shiki can't do anything to him. However, Shiki can kill what she thinks to be "alive", for example, say a telephone that she perceives as "being alive because it's not broken". On the other hand, if it's broken and therefore feels it's "already dead", she won't see lines.
Rakkyo dictionary on death lines
The scribble-like lines always flowing around that Ryougi Shiki sees. These are present in any and all things, and by cutting them through blades, it is possible to "cut" an object having these lines. There is no strength to these lines, so no matter what the object it is, it can be killed equally. The death lines are not lines where the object is cut easily but the concept of the lifespan of existence taking form. Strictly speaking, this is not taking apart the object by cutting along the lines, but killing the object by cutting its lifespan. It might be easier to understand this as meaning, not physical destruction, but erasing existentially. Shiki is a living being so it's easier for her to see the lines of the living. This is because she can easily understand the "death of a living being" as another living being. To see the death lines of minerals/concepts, she has to become a mineral, or put her brain on full throttle and "imagine" it. To make things short, she can't see the end (lines) of an existence beyond human comprehension.
So yeah, both Tohno and Ryougi don't see the death of their target, but the lifespan. It's not their eyes that are different, it's their 'brains'/'specs', they both see death (lifespan) in different ways. Also, I am sorry, but the dialogue of MBAA that you are quoting is a completely mistranslation. Someone even posted the video from which you are quoting that text from in Beast Lairs, and Arai himself said that it was a mistranslation. See
AE: And yet It cannot suffer even that? Apparently, It has deemed that if they are fated to conflict, it is all the same to conclude things here.
She is talking about the conflict between Gaia and Alaya here, this has nothing to do with Dust of Osiris at all. White Len thought that Alaya had summoned Ryougi to take out the Tatari, but that's wrong as AE said. And AE wasn't summoned to deal with the Tatari either, as it has been stated that it isn't Gaia's job to deal with human-made threats. This is all a conflict between Gaia and Alaya, that is what Arcueid and Ryougi were summoned for.
AE: What impatience. The fault lies in that your Aspect is an Order that encompasses all. It is all well to have many options, but to lack uniformity is a deplorable thing is it not?
And this one, Arai's translation of the third line you quoted, is radically different. In this line she is talking about Ryougi's connection to Akasha, which is an order that encompasses everything. This has nothing to do with DoO, it wouldn't require Alaya's (let alone Gaia) direct intervention to deal with a threat like Dust, when Alaya can indirectly use one of the many people available to deal with her; Aoko, Akiha, Riesbyfe, etc.
AE: Yes, you need say no more. The target the Being that summoned you to eliminate is this vessel, the manifestation of lifespan (Life) most far-reaching on this planet.
She is referring to herself as a vessel, she is not saying that her vessel summoned Ryougi (that wouldn' make any sense).
RS: What the.....I can't see your death isn’t the problem, no, you have no death. RS: Says you, vampire. Whatever you are, however many billions long your life is, it doesn't matter.
This is important. RS doesn't see lines and in this case it's obvious it's not because she can't see them, but it's because for AE, death doesn't exist. Then we see RS interpreting the lack of lines, as meaning her lifespan is really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, long (into the hundreds of millions). I mean, it's not like she's measuring anything, but what's important here is that RS' own take on the lack of death = lifespan.
So what we have here is; Lifespan so loooooooooooong it's not funny = no lines (not restricted by place of origin) I dunno lol = I can't see lines (some correlation with place of origin)
RS: Either way, it's the end of the dream. Let's do it. I'll show you that I can kill anything alive, even god.
It is only "as long as it is alive". But Arc is an eternal existence under the moon. That's what she meant in Tsukime when she said that on the night she has no "time of death".
And no, AE is not a concept, Arc doesn't become a concept under the moon. She is the normal Arcueid at full power, with strength maximized by Gaia. Here is AE's official profile from MBAA
The Princess of the True Ancestors. Arcueid's true form. That which shows her side as the touch of the planet as the True Ancestor of highest grade of purity. Not an alter ego of Arcueid, but one and the same as the normal her. This version of her temporarily borrowed this body. For Arcueid (her body) to become this form, she must take back her stolen hair.
Gaia temporarily gave Arcueid her true powers back. And once again, I repeat myself, the only reason why Ryougi couldn't see Arc's lines is because on the night, under the moon, Arc is a perfect existence that doesn't carry a concept of death as far as Akasha is concerned. So the only way for Ryougi to make her vulnerable is by killing the world like Tohno did in Ciel's route.
Also, I apologuize for my rudeness. I overreacted, it's just that what you posted didn't make much sense, and I couldn't understand how someone could arrive to that conclussion due to a mistranslation. I hope this would clear things up.
ORT has no death as well. It has been said that as long as the battleground is earth, ORT has no weaknesses, it is also stated that ORT cannot be killed by the MEoDP because it doesn't have the concept of death, so not even Shiki's third personality would be able to kill ORT as long as the battleground is earth. Archetype Earth under the moon is no different, the only difference is that her source of power is right there and therefore Shiki can kill it. But that would be meaningless, since even if she does that she would probably get ripped apart by AE's claws at a speed of Mach XX (or maybe faster).
Derfen said: This type of conversations are funny, more if we consider that Nasu is a troll when it comes to talking about the levels of power Ryougi have.
Nasu in an interview he said the most powerful characters in the TYPE-MOON (excluding servants) are:
1. Arcueid Brunestud.
2. "Ryougi Shiki"
3. Primordial demons.
Sorry, but where did he say that Ryougi was one of the strongest? I remember in an interview that most TM fans will know that Nasu said Ryougi and Ciel would only be able to fight average Servants defensively. I know you said "excluding Servants" but then by that criteria, Ciel should be up there as well. Also, you forgot about the Types. I find it hard to believe Nasu would put Ryougi and Arc above ORT, since the man himself said ORT is basically impossible to beat, excluding other Types and whatever weapons they used to fight Types in Angel Notes.
Farran said: Sorry, but where did he say that Ryougi was one of the strongest? I remember in an interview that most TM fans will know that Nasu said Ryougi and Ciel would only be able to fight average Servants defensively. I know you said "excluding Servants" but then by that criteria, Ciel should be up there as well. Also, you forgot about the Types. I find it hard to believe Nasu would put Ryougi and Arc above ORT, since the man himself said ORT is basically impossible to beat, excluding other Types and whatever weapons they used to fight Types in Angel Notes.
Nasu mention this in a recent interview, and yes it is quite inconsistent with his earlier statement that Ryougi can only fight with the servants defensive level, she is powerful to defeat all the characters can fight at the same level as the servants but at the same time can only fight defensively against them. >_>
Types are excluded by pure logic, now if we are talking about characters like Dead Apostle Ancestors, Kishimo Kouma and Ciel are ranked below Ryougi.
Farran said: I find it hard to believe Nasu would put Ryougi and Arc above ORT, since the man himself said ORT is basically impossible to beat, excluding other Types and whatever weapons they used to fight Types in Angel Notes.
Nah, he just said that ORT was the strongest Type in terms of sheer physical power. The strongest Types are probably Type Jupiter and Type Saturn. Also, are you implying that Archetype Earth isn't on the same level as the other Types? Roa said in Kagetsu Tohya that Arc = Type Moon in scale, so she is on par with Type Moon, though who knows how Type Moon fits within the Type power rankings.
Normal Shiki would get beaten due to being bound by human restrictions (heck she had a hard time following Lio when they fought). Though with the 3rd Personality, Shiki is practically a god (or more closely "Death" or "nothingness") as she is literally Akasha (The Root, The Origin) meaning that she can renew and recreate the whole of reality if she so simply desired (not to mention she is aware of past, present, and future events).
What most people forget is that when Nasu described Shiki as only being capable of fighting Servants defensively, he was referring to the idea of her at full strength with the use of a katana (like when she fought Araya) as opposed to the full extent of the powers of her 3rd Personality.
Having 3rd Personality Shiki fight Archetype-Earth would be impossible as Nasu himself has said that the two universes of Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai are too different in terms of the fundamentals and the nature of how it all works. For example, Touko's goal is to study the "perfect body", in Tsukihime that would have to be Arcueid since she is the embodies the form of the original Archetype, while in Kara no Kyoukai it's Shiki as she is the current incarnation and manifestation of Akasha (the Origin and foundation of reality itself) . One is the most powerful being of their planet, while the other is Akasha/the Origin itself.
They're both practically the gods of their own universe (with nearly the same abilities except some differences based on their respective worlds), so having a legit fight between them is practically impossible.
In the end it all comes down to preference, though personally I like Ryougi Shiki more. ^_^
ronri said: What most people forget is that when Nasu described Shiki as only being capable of fighting Servants defensively, he was referring to the idea of her at full strength with the use of a katana (like when she fought Araya) as opposed to the full extent of the powers of her 3rd Personality.
No. Also, he already placed Arcueid above Void Shiki in an interview from 2007 about the strongest character in his works.