Aya, what are you doing? When Reimu's gone out of her way to show some hospitality, you don't grab a cup and leave... you stay and DRINK YOUR GODDAMN TEA!
MezzoDragon said: Reimu should have both sides. Clueless and silent to her friends; an asshole to those that deserve a beatdown.
Well, that's not exactly possible. In canon, during the gameplay she is being an asshole to anyone and everyone (even her allies, remember IN or SA), flying around and beating the living shit out of them with her balls of terror. And after they are properly minced and grilled, she turns the terminator mode off and everyone is dragged to the shrine for a cup of tea.
博麗 said: Well, that's not exactly possible. In canon, during the gameplay she is being an asshole to anyone and everyone (even her allies, remember IN or SA), flying around and beating the living shit out of them with her balls of terror. And after they are properly minced and grilled, she turns the terminator mode off and everyone is dragged to the shrine for a cup of tea.
Zerud said: so.. I guess Double Spoiler didn't exist when this komas were made, so much canon thing and momiji and aya still together (not saying this is a bad thing)
Bah. Canon made to troll the fanbase should not be considered canon at all.
Considering Momiji never had dialogue until DS, we have no way of knowing ZUN did not intend her now cannon personality for her all along-he didn't neccessarily do it to troll us.
And to be perfectly honest, that new personality is far more interesting than the "submissive love puppy" personality that the fannon invented for her...considering she IS a wolf, after all.
Zaku_Zelo said: Bah. Canon made to troll the fanbase should not be considered canon at all.
AHAHAHAAHAHAAAA! CRY SOME MOAR!
Maaan, you've made FanDumb into an art! Into a freakin' ART! Why the fuck should ZUN have to take into consideration what the fans have done with his characters when he makes new stuff? I remember someone getting royally butt-hurt when Aya's ears were revealed, saying that he's "just decided to retcon Aya and piss all over the previous fanart of her because they aren't pointy eared". Now, here you are, complaining that anything made by the creator made solely to troll the fanbase shouldn't be considered canon at all. I'm guessing you're mad cause Momiji, the one mid-boss with no dialogue and no personality whatsoever, who actually got noticed by ZUN, has been given a personality that ISN'T like the fanon interpretation. As I said in the Aya picture, it's his series, he's not obligated to keep fanon stable.
And I think there's a term for what ZUN does, the whole "Making stuff up in a fictional series that completely goes against what the fans have imagined", but I'll change the title a little.
Whoa, whoa, calm the fuck down, man. What are you smoking, seriously.
Some people weren't pleased by the fact he changed Aya's ears and introduced Momiji as someone who didn't meet their tastes in DS. I personally liked Momiji but disliked the ears... but that's not the point.
The point is: "So fucking what?" It's just an opinion.
Chaykon said: Whoa, whoa, calm the fuck down, man. What are you smoking, seriously.
Some people weren't pleased by the fact he changed Aya's ears and introduced Momiji as someone who didn't meet their tastes in DS. I personally liked Momiji but disliked the ears... but that's not the point.
The point is: "So fucking what?" It's just an opinion.
Being awake at 2AM makes me slightly antsy. Or something >_>
I can understand people being happy or angry about canon stuff, since they're confirming it happened. But it's a bit stupid when someone decides to write off canon as bullshit if it's "made troll the fanbase". If there was no personality for a character, it's not trolling the fanbase to give them a personality, it's called "fleshing the character out". Making them interesting by giving them character traits and quirks. As Byakugan01 said, the personality she's been given in DS (ie she doesn't like Aya and looks down on her) is more interesting than submissive love-puppy. It's just that some people can't accept it when change happens to their favourite blank slate and decide to mentally block it out if something goes against their beloved fanon. I know there'd be a shit-ton of anger and rage and cursing if Valve were to give Gordon Freeman a voice, and he suddenly turned out to be gay or something. But I digress.
Yes, it's an opinion. A very ignorant and stupid opinion, but an opinion nonetheless, which means I'm not allowed to respond to it without some sort of fucking degree.
Krugger said: Is this a precursor to the responses to what the new game with Cirno as main is going to bring
Yes. I'd get out of here whilst it's possible if I were you.
Danbooru(mostly JakeBob) said: Words, words, words
That's nice. The FACT of the matter is that ZUN created a character with no story or personality or anything, and left it like that for THREE YEARS, after which he wrote in a canon personality and story which directly contradicted everything the fanbase had come up with in the void he had left. Yes, it's his character, and yes, he's got the right to do what he wants with it, but that doesn't mean you should. It's a dick-move like no other to troll your consumer base in such a way.
Oh, and the upset over Aya's ears was because they looked god damn ridiculous.
Zaku_Zelo said: That's nice. The FACT of the matter is that ZUN created a character with no story or personality or anything, and left it like that for THREE YEARS, after which he wrote in a canon personality and story which directly contradicted everything the fanbase had come up with in the void he had left. Yes, it's his character, and yes, he's got the right to do what he wants with it, but that doesn't mean you should. It's a dick-move like no other to troll your consumer base in such a way.
Oh, and the upset over Aya's ears was because they looked god damn ridiculous.
Got one question: Since when has touhou fanon ever seriously followed canon?
1. It does NOT contradict everything about the character. The only thing he had written about her before is that she has great senses, is very loyal and plays shogi with the kappa. The fanon interpretation was built on that. The fact that she does not get along with Aya does not suddenly make her an untrustworthy backstabber; She just doesn't like Aya for reasons unexplained.
2. It's NOT a dick move at all. He finally decided to flesh out one of HIS creations, and clearly didn't want another blindly loyal subordinate character; We already have Youmu. The character he gave Momiji is far more interesting in my opinion than a Youmu clone.
Of course, I'm of the opinion that canon is better than fanon because Zun seems to try to avoid the most tired of cliches. Case in point: Canon Alice = a snarky, but kind hermit who occasionally interacts with select people (mostly Marisa it seems), but otherwise prefers to be left to her work. Also has a bit of a sadistic streak and enjoys battle. Fanon Alice = generic tsundere, or generic yandere
Lastly. while I do agree that the elf ears were ridiculous, that doesn't mean fan-artists are forced to draw them.
Chaykon said: Yeah, you are right, but flipping out really didn't help to prove your point. Brotip: It never does, unless done in a comic way.
I like how apparently, I'm flipping out. I'd be using MOREstuff like this if I was really angry. I'm just getting my point across in a very long-winded way.
narocroc said: I shudder to imagine what the fandom might do if ZUN gives Daiyousei a real name and personality in 12.8.
Well, he's named Daiyousei AS Daiyousei, hasn't he? But yes, there must be a personality given to her, WE NEED MORE CHARACTERISATION! :D
Zaku_Zelo said: That's nice.
Thanks ;)
Zaku_Zelo said: Yes, it's his character, and yes, he's got the right to do what he wants with it, but that doesn't mean you should. It's a dick-move like no other to troll your consumer base in such a way.
I'd use an "if it was you" example, but you'd probably just say "no, I like my fans too much to make my stuff different to their stuff", because you can. So I'll say this again: It's his series, he gets to do what he wants with it. Don't like it? Tough beans, adapt your fanon to fit around the canon.
Zaku_Zelo said: Oh, and the upset over Aya's ears was because they looked god damn ridiculous.
That's really a matter of taste, so I'll give you that.
Hyperion_Zero said: Of course, I'm of the opinion that canon is better than fanon because Zun seems to try to avoid the most tired of cliches. Case in point: Canon Alice = a snarky, but kind hermit who occasionally interacts with select people (mostly Marisa it seems), but otherwise prefers to be left to her work. Also has a bit of a sadistic streak and enjoys battle. Fanon Alice = generic tsundere, or generic yandere
This is why I hate people who believe the fanon is real1. All the characters are typecast and flanderised beyond recognition. Anyone who sees Kaguya, for instance, in fan-works, then gets to her in-game will wonder who this lady is, and what she's done with the NEET. It's funny the first time, but the thousandth time will make you want to kill the guy who pictured the characters as such. (not hatin' on you, Hyperion, btw)
And I like the canon, personally, since it tends to make a little more sense than some of the fan-wank that can turn up.
Hyperion_Zero said: Lastly. while I do agree that the elf ears were ridiculous, that doesn't mean fan-artists are forced to draw them.
There's also this. I can't make a good direct comparison, so I won't try for a mediocre one.
Man, headache made this take forever. I can foresee this either ending in a mass vote-down by Zaku and Chaykon, a warning from the mods, or both.
Also, I'd like to make a point that I don't think the fanon's BAD, exactly. The pictures, remixes, comics and so on can be good if it's done right. I just hate the fans who can't accept change when it happens, and bitch about how they hate ZUN forever for changing something they made up and swear off touhou forever or something stupid like that, and then a week later, are back on the doujin sites acting like nothing happened (either their bitch-fest or the official change). There are some cool fans, then there's the other 90% or so mentioned in Sturgeon's Law.
I'm not saying the new canon contradicts the old canon, I'm saying it contradicts the image of Momiji that's built up from the tiny amount of canon she had originally. To let this image sit and build up for so long before saying "Hey, it's actually the exact opposite of that" is definitely a huge dick move. Again, yes, it's his series and it's his character. Would you still be arguing his case if he decided that all Touhous were actually traps the whole time? The author of a story can do what he wants, but there are things things you just shouldn't.
Honestly, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the fanon was there first. Fanon contradicts canon all the time, it's what it does. But when there is no canon for a character from the start, and fanon is created about said character...ZUN can't really complain, he left the character to the wolves. Pun? Maybe...
To write in canon for a character that didn't have any canon previously, years after fandom has created a personality and story in the authors absence, and to have this canon so clearly come in the form of a huge "FUCK YOU" to the built-up fanon is just plain unacceptable.
Doesn't change the fact he DID decide to give a cannon image that wasn't a Youmu clone...and there will always be those people, like me, who prefer the new cannon. Besides, it's ultimately HIS creation, HIS work. He's free to do what he wants with the characters, and if that means contradicting fannon, well then he's free to do that. Just because you don't like the change doesn't mean that he can't do it. Momiji is afterall ZUN's IP.
Also, nothing about the new cannon contradicts the old cannon. Afterall, how many people do great at their job, but don't get along with their boss? Nice change from the Chen-Ran-Yukari, Ghost Team, and Sakuya-Remilia style relationship.
You're not listening. I'm not saying the new canon contradicts the old canon. There was no old canon. I'm not saying he can't do what he wants. I'm saying he shouldn't pull shit like this.
Zaku_Zelo said: You're not listening. I'm not saying the new canon contradicts the old canon. There was no old canon. I'm not saying he can't do what he wants. I'm saying he shouldn't pull shit like this.
Technically, Momiji DID have some old canon, but you could fit it onto a post-it note. She liked playing games with the kappa, she warned her superiors of any intruders if she couldn't defeat them, and she apparently has a lot of free time. She is also a co-operative person and does her duties as instructed. That doesn't say anything about her relationship with Aya, so ZUN probably decided, in order to have some conflict, that Momiji shouldn't get along with Aya. That's Aya (and, apparently, the crow tengu in general), not every single tengu in the tengu society. So she doesn't hate everyone she works with, just the one character that actually appears in-game.
I like how you said that because the fanon interpretation was there first, it means ZUN shouldn't be allowed to do diddly-squat with his characters (or at least, he can't complain when everyone else complains about official work). Geez, where do you get off, saying stuff like that? You must think very highly of yourself and the other "loyal fans" if you think you can say that and not expect a rebuttal.
And I doubt that ZUN is even bothered about what he's done to your submissive little love-puppy. The only people complaining are the people who hate the new Momiji, and the people who try and shut the haters up.
The image that the new Momiji contradicts is an image made up purely by the fandom. It's essentially a very elaborate guess as to what Momiji could be like. The canon then came along, and smashed through your expectations like a crushing ball with a maple leaf on it.
Plus, you say that there was very little canon to begin with, then around seven or eight hours later, you say there is no canon. Make up your mind!
And as a little side-note, it would be VERY funny to me if ZUN revealed every character to be a trap. I'd like to see how he would explain it off if he did it. Of course, it's about as likely as the Moon crashing into Mars, since it's been very much confirmed that the characters are girls. Still, just as likely to happen as Daiyousei suddenly being given a personality that makes her out as an anti-social character that actually, is in love with Cirno.
Man, after all these arguments, I wish Zun would "troll" the fanbase more often. Butthurt secondaries are always fun to watch. Yes, you can downvote this, I don't mind
SHUN0 said: Man, after all these arguments, I wish Zun would "troll" the fanbase more often. Butthurt secondaries are always fun to watch. Yes, you can downvote this, I don't mind
SHUN0 said: Man, after all these arguments, I wish Zun would "troll" the fanbase more often. Butthurt secondaries are always fun to watch. Yes, you can downvote this, I don't mind
Am I in the butthurt secondaries? It's hard to tell, I just like poking holes into these people's "arguments".
Well, I've never been one to avoid a flame I could easily pour gas onto, so...
Seriously, JakeBob or whoever else... what's it matter? This story has a softer and gentler Reimu than Canon normally portrays, and has a kinder version of Momiji, too. It's a fanfic. You're allowed to change some things for fanfics.
Tohonifun had absolutely invincible HAX psychobitch Reimu (and Yuuka, too, for that matter,) because that's what it took to make a good story. If it takes a kind and child-like Reimu to make the story work in this case, then that's perfectly fine.
The reason why Touhou has such a wealth of fanfiction is that the character designs are very loose and open to interpretation. Why throw random fits at people for prefering their own fan image now, when we've had fan images of different characters for quite a while? Canon is just the starting point. The bare bones to start the fanon-generating process. What makes Touhou's fandom so unique is the power of the fandom in shaping the overall story. Why would you want to strip away Touhou's greatest strength and unique quality?
Heck, if you're talking about how ZUN should ignore fanon and having Daiyousei have a personality, keep in mind that Daiyousei was a fanon name to begin with. Even Koakuma started fan-named, and ZUN basically just agreed. (And he claimed her personality was more impish than fawning, at that, which is pretty much an exact replica of the case now...)
So it's abusrd for Zaku_Zelo to complain about ZUN breaking with canon because it "trolls the fanbase that he's wrong", so what? Just keep writing whatever makes a good story, even if it's only the image in your own mind.
Likewise, since when do we need some sort of Canon Police in the Touhou fandom declaring that everyone must rewrite all fanfics to conform to the properties of the One True Canon?
Oh, and for the record, I'm perfectly fine with "Momiji doesn't like Aya" because she's forced to work as a subordinate to Aya, since that just means that when Aya's a giant blowhard jackass to most people, she's absolutely insuferable when she's your superior. Poor Momiji's just got a bad boss who talks smack about her behind her back (after all, that bit of canon is "from the mouth" of Aya).
The only thing that does is conflict with potential Aya/Momiji relationship fics... and it's not like slashficcers give half a shit what's canon. They take sibling relationships like an open invitation to turn the relationship sexual.
So again, it changes nothing, why drop a stream of f-bombs in a NERD RAAAAGE argument when it doesn't even change anything important?
Listen. ZUN made a character with no canon*, fanon made some fanon for it, and much later ZUN made new canon that directly contradicted every aspect of aforementioned fanon. I know fanon isn't canon, but with no canon in place previously, that was all there was to shape the character in the eyes of the fandom. If coming out of nowhere and shattering the only image there is of a character with the exact opposite image isn't trolling, then I don't know what is.
For the last time, I know ZUN can do what he wants. What he did was troll. I'm saying he shouldn't have. The fact that it didn't troll you doesn't change what it was.
I can't make it any clearer than this.
Honestly, I don't care any more. Say something against the almighty ZUN and suddenly half the internet is jumping down the throat of the "lol buttmad secondary XD."
*I know I contradicted my earlier "very little canon" statement. The canon there is is so pointless and insignificant that I decided it would be easier to just ignore it.
Zaku_Zelo said: Listen. ZUN made a character with no canon*, fanon made some fanon for it, and much later ZUN made new canon that directly contradicted every aspect of aforementioned fanon. I know fanon isn't canon, but with no canon in place previously, that was all there was to shape the character in the eyes of the fandom. If coming out of nowhere and shattering the only image there is of a character with the exact opposite image isn't trolling, then I don't know what is.
For the last time, I know ZUN can do what he wants. What he did was troll. I'm saying he shouldn't have. The fact that it didn't troll you doesn't change what it was.
I can't make it any clearer than this.
Honestly, I don't care any more. Say something against the almighty ZUN and suddenly half the internet is jumping down the throat of the "lol buttmad secondary XD."
*I know I contradicted my earlier "very little canon" statement. The canon there is is so pointless and insignificant that I decided it would be easier to just ignore it.
Like NWSiaCB said, when's canon ever stopped you from making shit up anyway? Just calm down about the fact that Momiji has a personality at long last and keep writing your fanfics/comics.
Saying that someone shouldn't have done something after they've done their thing isn't going to make them undo what they've done. It's also stupid to say that someone who owns a game series should kow-tow to the fans because their new, official work contradicts every fan-made work of their game series. The guy doesn't have an obligation to his fandom to keep canon close to fanon. Besides, Fanon Momiji's crap, boring and predictable.
The only people this apparently trolls are the raging fanboys who find that their submissive love puppy actually hates someone she knows.
I'm only arguing with you because you said something stupid in general. If you'd said that about Mario, or Zelda, or any other game series/company ever (excluding Valve) I'd've told you you were being an idiot. Just cause the series is Touhou doesn't change the fact that your statement was stupid and that you should feel stupid for having said so. But, you don't feel stupid, cause you thought you were being witty.
Also, NWSiaCB, we weren't arguing about the comic, as I think it's pretty cool. We were arguing about Momiji's canon/fanon interpretations. Interesting info about the various fanon interpretations on Reimu, though. And like I've said earlier, I'm complaining about the stupidity of Zaku's comment. You can do whatever you like with canon and fanon, but to write off canon because it "trolls the fanbase" is, as I've said, stupid.
(for every time I say the word "stupid", take a shot)
JakeBob said: Am I in the butthurt secondaries? It's hard to tell, I just like poking holes into these people's "arguments".
Depends. If you're an individual who never even touch any of the games, and you like Touhou simply because of all the fanworks (usually full of fanon shit) and you rage when the the creator suddenly comes up with something that contradicts what you have liked for some time, yeah, you're qualified as one. Go figure yourself wether you're one or not. I certainly hope you're not.
SHUN0 said: Depends. If you're an individual who never even touch any of the games, and you like Touhou simply because of all the fanworks (usually full of fanon shit) and you rage when the the creator suddenly comes up with something that contradicts what you have liked for some time, yeah, you're qualified as one. Go figure yourself wether you're one or not. I certainly hope you're not.
Too much to read, though what can i say is: Fans will always shit all over the cannon when making a story, not every artist will read all about touhou, and know everything of it, they will create their own world that may have nothing to do with the actual story. Cannon exists, is created and may or may not be affected by fans depending on how much ears the autor makes to the fanbase. I for what i care, stick to the cannon mostly but i'm open minded enough to enjoy random comics, though i still like the most when they are cannon personalities.
We are on a 4koma series where we have a pure,cute,selfess, friendly and quiet reimu... Do you need a better example?
Well, now that Symposium has been released you can all argue some more over Momiji's dialogue in that if you please.
I myself personally like the badass tengu Momiji that, you know, does her job and whatnot. That isn't to say I dislike Moemiji. In fact, I love them both... a lot. Even though she's incredibly minor, she's my favourite character in the series~ I personally go by cannon more than fanon, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate fanworks and like their views on the characters.
On another related note, Momiji appeared in this comic. My life is complete. Thank you, sora, thank you.
StakeoutAyayaya... You'll never make it as a reporter with that attitude, Momiji.Ah... Ayaya...
We've been spottedAya-san... can't you just give it up?I'm not a reporter at all...
Momiji uses the masculine "boku" here.There's really nothing scandalous about Reimu-san...Uh... Aya-san, look over there...I knew it was no good trying to follow her around... Reimu-san's so kind-hearted, it hurts...Okay, so maybe I was wrong... I just thought she might be different behind closed doors or something...
C'mon, let's go.