Overtagging with "yuri"

sgcdonmai said:
I don't think it implies anything of the sort. There's not even blushing going on, which you almost always would find in a situation like that. The focus on MEIKO's lips is probably just to play up the sexualized older-woman aspect to the audience.

I can certainly see how some people could interpret it as not-yuri, but if I was doing a search on the yuri tag, I think I'd generally prefer to have 'open-to-interpretation' images like that included rather than excluded.

My feeling is that when an image can be interpreted multiple ways, it's better to tag on all reasonable interpretations... sometimes some of the best images are 'subtle' like this, so they can be read multiple ways.

I think tags are what describe, objectively, the content of a post, not a particular interpretation. Even if there is some subtext, what matters is what the pixels say.

e.g. evangeline_a_k_mcdowell vampire. We know the character is a vampire but, does it matter in most of her posts?

Xabid said:
I can certainly see how some people could interpret it as not-yuri, but if I was doing a search on the yuri tag, I think I'd generally prefer to have 'open-to-interpretation' images like that included rather than excluded.

A problem is there are way too many interpretations.

Xabid said:
My feeling is that when an image can be interpreted multiple ways, it's better to tag on all reasonable interpretations... sometimes some of the best images are 'subtle' like this, so they can be read multiple ways.

See «2girls breast_grap» (or 2girls and anything else). Many would tag all of these as yuri, since they are not used to see so much skinship outside of sex.

korokun said:
I think tags are what describe, objectively, the content of a post, not a particular interpretation. Even if there is some subtext, what matters is what the pixels say.

More or less. Tags are supposed to be terms describing "visual & factual elements" in pictures. The problem is, when it comes to things like yuri, what is considered visually and factually present may vary from person to person. The pixels show one girl lightly caressing the forearm of another. To some, this factually indicates yuri. To others, it does not. Trying to apply what amounts to a "gaydar" to posts will never be an exact science.

The thing is, if you tag stuff like post #584011 as yuri, then you would also have to go ahead and tag stuff like post #93421 as yaoi. I mean, Fate+Nanoha is a popular yuri pairing, and Kyon+Koizumi is a popular yaoi pairing. So you might as well tag all pics of them holding hands as yaoi.

Let's see yuri as a set of "actions". For example:
Is holding hands yuri? Not always (not in set)
Is sex between girls yuri? Yes

If any of the post "actions" is in the "always yuri" set, it should get the yuri tag. Not otherwise.

Holding hands can be yuri though.

I took care of that but was not explicit enough. It *can be* but, without context, it is not. What I propose, is a minimal set of actions that does not leave any doubt.

If you remove the context, it can become a "visual & factual" tag as Eld said.

jjj14 said:
The thing is, if you tag stuff like post #584011 as yuri, then you would also have to go ahead and tag stuff like post #93421 as yaoi. I mean, Fate+Nanoha is a popular yuri pairing, and Kyon+Koizumi is a popular yaoi pairing. So you might as well tag all pics of them holding hands as yaoi.

In one of these posts, two characters are holding hands, lying next to each other in what looks like a very large bed and blushing. There are also large hearts in the image. In the other, one seems to be grabbing the hand of the other, who seems completely disinterested, while crossing the street. I really don't think they're comparable. All the same, if post #584011 wasn't tagged yuri, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. I'm inclined to say it should be tagged yuri, though. Further, if post #93421 had them lying in bed, holding hand and blushing with large hearts around them, I would be inclined to say it should be tagged yaoi too.

korokun said:
Let's see yuri as a set of "actions". For example:
Is holding hands yuri? Not always (not in set)
Is sex between girls yuri? Yes

If any of the post "actions" is in the "always yuri" set, it should get the yuri tag. Not otherwise.

I disagree. I think the context the image itself provides can matter a great deal when tagging yuri, yaoi or similar.

I think that if it's ambiguous enough to provide reasonable doubt, it shouldn't get the yuri tag.

Depopulating the yuri tag does not gain us anything.

Fencedude said: Depopulating the yuri tag does not gain us anything.

It's small enough as it is, relatively speaking. I'm always surprised how relatively little comes up when I search a series + yuri. Yeah it's 10k posts, but 20% is Touhou and the rest is spread among every other copy: on the site.

If only we had a tag that we can use for extremely ambiguous cases so yuri fanatics wouldn't dilute the main yuri tag.

As was pointed out earlier, the dilution can be removed by searching yuri rating:e or yuri -rating:s.

We really don't consider the usage of ratings as ways of tiering tags.

I'm well aware of the policy regarding yuri and rating:s. I was talking about the ambiguous not-sexual-but-not-platonic cases, something 2girls was supposed to solve until it got reduced to an insipid counter.

Just tag it yuri and let it go. Yuri covers the entire continuum.

I would have liked to bring up a more neutral point of view concerning the terminology dispute yuri vs. shoujo-ai. It turned out to be more difficult than I would have guessed.

Currently Shoujo-ai redirects the readers of the English Wikipedia to the Yuri article. It describes shoujo-ai as a slowly fading term, as yuri is gaining a stronger footing not only within the western fan community but also among Japanese publishers, who formerly preferred girls love (ガールズラブ). Another problematic aspect about shoujo-ai is that if and when it is used in Japan, it may have a meaning similar to lolicon.

Of course, what is factually happening in the English language community should be more relevant than what is happening in Japan. The term shoujo-ai still has strong support within the English-speaking manga and anime fandom, proven by the mere existence of such relatively new online communities as Shoujo Ai.org. On the other hand, Shoujo-Ai Archive, a more established community, is rather neutral towards either term; and the influential Yuricon movement, led by Erica Friedman, has had reclaiming the term yuri on its agenda since 2005 or longer.

I must admit I am curious as to how this will develop further -- and as to whether the Danbooru community is taking sides or not.

References:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoujo-ai
• note 18 is of special interest

• http://www.shoujoai.org/
• presenting an etymology challenged in most other sources

• http://www.shoujoai.com/

• http://www.yuricon.org/essays/whatisyuri.html

We're not bringing shoujo-ai back it was a bad enough clusterfuck getting rid of it in the first place.

Log said:

it was a bad enough clusterfuck getting rid of it in the first place

Holy Suwako, you guys have actually done that work at some point? Wow.

I'll accept a broad concept of yuri if others are okay with that, with ratings as the modifier. The "correct" terminology does support it.

However in terms of searching convenience, it'd still be good if we come come up with two different tags. Problem is there's no good alternate term for the more platonic stuff.

Hmm. Are there corresponding separate tags for heterosexual relationships?

I have just used combinations like couple kissing and couple sex if needed.