Deprecating the Habit

BUR #23528 has been rejected.

deprecate habit

I think this was a long time coming.

When reading its wiki, you find out that habit is intended to be used for 'religious habits', in this context Christian ones. We end up reaching our first problem with that alone, in that tags such as nun and priest are not just used for depicting actual nuns/priests or doing nun/priest things, but also as costume tags (ala forum #167893) - and predominately so as costume tags. By that definition, over 6k posts are missing from that tag, but in turn you beg the question; why do we even need a tag lumping together nun and priest clothes together? No one who wants sexy religious people will search habit for that, they'll search the individual tags instead.

But then you actually look at the tag use, and you realize the wiki isn't being followed. Just over 4k posts under habit are not tagged nun despite being perfectly viable for it, and nearly half of that is Bridget (Guilty Gear). Despite the fact that Bridget's outfit is derivative of nun clothing, especially so earlier in the franchise, there was a conscious effort to avoid tagging nun for it... but compensating for its absence by tagging habit instead (which implicitly implies tagging nun is correct). From there you get the second, unspoken definition of the tag that runs counter to the actual definition: "use this tag for non-traditional depictions of nun habits and other religious habits." Anyone who remembers topic #23543 would know why this is problematic (especially since then, as now you can just do nun -traditional_nun to assure a search with non-traditional depictions of nuns). And this isn't even getting into its use on fantasy priest(esse)s, which goes against both the tag's definition and its implicit use.

Take these two points together - it both being functionally a nun pad tag and it acting as a non-traditional nun tag unofficially - and then remember that "habit" is an ambiguous word that can also refer to, you know, behavior, and that gives justification towards deprecating it and banishing its posts where they would be most appropriate (or just straight-up nuking it from certain characters).

I'd rather rework this tag into something like nun_headdress, nun_veil, or nun_coif. Thats what people are trying to tag anyway when tagging Bridget with it.

Rename or alias would be preferable to depreciation.

zetsubousensei said:

I'd rather rework this tag into something like nun_headdress, nun_veil, or nun_coif. Thats what people are trying to tag anyway when tagging Bridget with it.

Rename or alias would be preferable to depreciation.

That can be done after deprecation, because a religious habit and the tag don't refer to a single garment.

zetsubousensei said:

I'd rather rework this tag into something like nun_headdress, nun_veil, or nun_coif. Thats what people are trying to tag anyway when tagging Bridget with it.

Rename or alias would be preferable to depreciation.

Are you really going to say we should depreciate a tag just so you can manually replace 98% of the tags manually? habit -headdress -veil -coif -bridget_(guilty_gear) -little_nuns_(diva) -black_headwear even trying to remove it from searches they all have it becuase its clearly what the tag was being used for. I'll go through and manually move the minority that were referring to robes only later tonight if it means someone doesnt need to spend a week doing the tidious task of manually remaking the tag with a new name.

zetsubousensei said:

I'd rather rework this tag into something like nun_headdress, nun_veil, or nun_coif. Thats what people are trying to tag anyway when tagging Bridget with it. habit -headdress -veil -coif -bridget_(guilty_gear) -little_nuns_(diva) -black_headwear even trying to remove it from searches they all have it becuase its clearly what the tag was being used for.

Rename or alias would be preferable to depreciation. I'll go through and manually move the minority that were referring to robes only later tonight if it means someone doesnt need to spend a week doing the tidious task of manually remaking the tag with a new name.

I don't see how deprecation wouldn't be an option in this scenario though. Even if this BUR was a rename or a mass update, it would be one that would also inevitably deprecate habit because at the end of the day, beyond its issues, it's still an ambiguous term (so aliasing is a non-option).

Having more individualized clothing tags for nuns could have some use, but I want you to think about that for a moment. Wouldn't individualized nun clothing articles inevitably imply the nun tag, which would just circle back to what I was suggesting at the start to begin with? Additionally, you can't just unilaterally throw out the robes, because the habit refers to the entire religious uniform, robe included. And that would similarly apply to the approximations of the robe segment - think of Bridget's pre-Strive design (post #899521) and how much it evokes nunnery with not just the headdress, coif/veil, guimpe, and wimple, etc but also the sleeveless shortened nun robe/dress. Hell, it's the sleeveless shortened robe/dress that is referred to as the "habit" in Bridget's wiki (a wiki whose appearance description has not been updated to specify that we're talking about the pre-Strive design in the context of the habit). Robes count for habits.

zetsubousensei said:

Are you really going to say we should depreciate a tag just so you can manually replace 98% of the tags manually? habit -headdress -veil -coif -bridget_(guilty_gear) -little_nuns_(diva) -black_headwear even trying to remove it from searches they all have it becuase its clearly what the tag was being used for. I'll go through and manually move the minority that were referring to robes only later tonight if it means someone doesnt need to spend a week doing the tidious task of manually remaking the tag with a new name.

I mean I prefer carefully moving the posts if necessary than moving all of them to something like nun_headdress. I don't think your rename suggestions are good when we have the two nun tags, veil and coif. I'm not in favor of an alias because of the meaning of the word. I disagre with OP as well, for me the wiki mentions Christian habits as an example, not as the intended use for the tag and robes can be part of a religious habit.

Damian0358 said:

I don't see how deprecation wouldn't be an option in this scenario though. Even if this BUR was a rename or a mass update, it would be one that would also inevitably deprecate habit because at the end of the day, beyond its issues, it's still an ambiguous term (so aliasing is a non-option).

I am well aware of all the components that make up a habit. But in terms of actual use the danbooru tag is being used for only the headwear. See post #6864448 post #6789398 post #4904793 post #345885.

My goal isnt to keep the name habit but keep the already made tag and give it a more proper name. Unless I'm missing something here? I dont think have more specific tags is an issue at all. Cowboy hat doesn't imply cowboy similarly police hat doesnt imply police. What would you tag those bikini pictures with without a more clear name for habit?

Sessyoin_Kiara said:

I mean I prefer carefully moving the posts if necessary than moving all of them to something like nun_headdress. I don't think your rename suggestions are good when we have the two nun tags, veil and coif. I'm not in favor of an alias because of the meaning of the word. I disagre with OP as well, for me the wiki mentions Christian habits as an example, not as the intended use for the tag and robes can be part of a religious habit.

Carefully moving is usually preferably but the work is already done in this case I'll clean the tag before the hypothetical move happens. I want to clarify that veil and coif are not nun-specifc at the moment and veil in particular is full of wedding pictures. You would not be able to filter them to find the linked pictures about.

zetsubousensei said:

My goal isnt to keep the name habit but keep the already made tag and give it a more proper name. Unless I'm missing something here? I dont think have more specific tags is an issue at all. Cowboy hat doesn't imply cowboy similarly police hat doesnt imply police. What would you tag those bikini pictures with without a more clear name for habit?

Well, we technically wouldn't be keeping an already made tag even in your scenario. The moment you rename a tag it's no longer "already made", but that's just me being overly semantic. Regardless, in your example of the headwear being worn with a bikini, half of your examples are already tagged with nun, there's tons of examples like them under nun bikini (most having habit tagged too), so there would be nothing lost with swapping in nun in place of habit.

And that's part of why I also think individualized nun clothing tags would end up getting implied to nun, because functionally that is how the nun tag is used, not just for the full nun habit but for art that depicts only the headdress section, see nun nude (with a similar case of a lot of it also being tagged with habit, so no functional loss of searchability per current metrics). It's a completely different situation from cowboy hat, which is headwear that can just as commonly be found in non-cowboy contexts. Again, I'm not against there being individualized nun clothing tags, but suggesting it as a way to "save" the tag doesn't make sense, because it all goes back to nun anyway.

zetsubousensei said:

Carefully moving is usually preferably but the work is already done in this case I'll clean the tag before the hypothetical move happens.

Please don't start mass editing a tag before a consensus has been reached.

If you want to work on it right now before the thread's even agreed on something, then create a favgroup of all the posts that should not be moved to the new tag, and then submit a bur like update habit -favgroup:id_here -priest -> -habit nun_coif or something. That's just an example, I haven't checked what kind of results are in there so more stuff might need to be excluded.

Incidentally, we have coif already, and coif -nun mostly shows the same results as nun.

zetsubousensei said:

habit -headdress -veil -coif -bridget_(guilty_gear) -little_nuns_(diva) -black_headwear even trying to remove it from searches they all have it becuase its clearly what the tag was being used for.

Going back to this search, I want to emphasize this point - if what you're saying about habit's contemporary usage on Danbooru is true, that it focuses specifically on the complete nun headdress (not just one part of it, like the coif), then by that reasoning, searching nun -habit should give us nuns who do not have the headdress on, which is something that can happen these days (in fiction or reality). Especially since, for it to be used for that purpose, someone must've gone back and gardened it as such. But the first 10 to 15 pages disprove that notion entirely.

And going back to what I suggested with my two definitions, checking the tag history further elucidates habit's usage as a nun pad tag (it was literally being tagged with nun on posts of Index), and in the case of it being used as a "non-traditional nun" substitute today, using Bridget again as an example, the vast majority of the tagging on Bridget's posts for habit happened after she appeared in Strive, with users going back and retroactively adding the tag to her older posts (so Bridget's posts circa August 8th 2022, numbering probably about over 600 at the time, had habit represented on less than 300 of them), and searching bridget_(guilty_gear) -habit still gives us tons of examples of the quasi-headdress that the Stribe design retained going untagged, and even pre-Strive art with the headdress going untagged. The users who tag habit are not focused on the headdress, they're focused on whether it looks nun-like (or using Related Tags).

nonamethanks said:

Please don't start mass editing a tag before a consensus has been reached.

Apologies, I thought better of it but should have reverted those few. Didnt realize the Fav-group utility, thanks for the heads-up!

Damian0358 said:

.

I still would prefer a more specific tag for the headdress so I think im going to make a fav group but looking at nun + bikini and nun + nude makes the nun tag seem overly broad to the point of annoyance. Your BUR makes sense in light of that. But i still find value in the presumed headwear tag.

I guess ill change to a meh, but i think this can be salvaged.

BUR #24187 has been rejected.

mass update habit -favgroup:30563 -priest -> -habit nun_headdress

Finally got this made, not sure on the name but I stand by above and maintain given the large amount of bikini posts being tagged with it are trying to tag the headwear.

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 45 days.

The bulk update request #23528 (forum #269561) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.

habit is currently pretty much an umbrella tag for religious outfits. How would you tag the habit worn by nuns and priests, if not with habit? Talking about something like post #7385655. Also it's not clear to me why we should have both nun headdress and coif.

nonamethanks said:

habit is currently pretty much an umbrella tag for religious outfits. How would you tag the habit worn by nuns and priests, if not with habit? Talking about something like post #7385655. Also it's not clear to me why we should have both nun headdress and coif.

Coif is not nun exclusive and also doesn't describe the veil which is the most iconic part of the outfit. See post #5933058 for a non-nun coif.

nonamethanks said:

How would you tag the habit worn by nuns and priests, if not with habit? Talking about something like post #7385655.

Nun and priest, and for the former, if it conforms to actual nun clothing, traditional nun (and then from there, actually tagging the clothes itself, ex. black robe). Per my earlier arguments, habit is just functionally a pad tag for either of those tags, and one can prove that just by looking at the tag history. In what context would you use habit that isn't already covered by the previous three tags?

habit -favgroup:30563 -priest -nun has close to 4k posts. Nuking habit from those posts would make them unsearchable. That's not good enough. Someone searching for nuns isn't going to search for "nun headdress", they're just going to search for nun.

nonamethanks said:

habit -favgroup:30563 -priest -nun has close to 4k posts. Nuking habit from those posts would make them unsearchable. That's not good enough. Someone searching for nuns isn't going to search for "nun headdress", they're just going to search for nun.

The BUR may as well be updated to include nun along with nun headdress (or even imply it), especially given my point earlier that the nun tag is already used on posts which only depict the headdress.